Reports in the local press last week revealed that Cay Clubs is laying off employees companywide.Here in the Keys, it was reported that 80 employees have been let go.
The vice president of operations, Frank Rego, made the layoffs sound like they were more closely tied to their upcoming merger with Keys Hospitality Acquisition Corp. ( a "blank-check" company formed to acquire assets). Rego was quoted as saying: "We are reorganizing to get structured as we need to operate as a public company," he said. "There are certain ways a company has to act as a public entity. We need to get things in a way that will be accepted by shareholders."
But later in the same report, Rego seemed to be pointing to bigger problems in the real estate developer arena. He was quoted as saying, "It is a down market. Several developers across the country are going out of business," Rego said. "We need to make sure we can prosper through a down market so we're one of the companies that stay in business."
No doubt that the real estate market has become treacherous for developers. Widespread reports of overbuilding of condos and condo prices crashing in South Florida have scared and bankrupt some developers. Projects that failed to get pre-construction buyers have been cancelled or abandoned on the mainland. And here in Key West, the change is evident as well. Major condo-conversion projects, like the Atlantic Shores, Hampton Inn, and others have found that they will be better off as hotels - and have, as I have heard, cancelled plans to go "condotel".
Cay Clubs is now among the largest developers in the Florida Keys. The question that we should be asking: "Have they bitten off more than they can chew?. And what effects will it have on the Keys should Cay Clubs and it's new parent company become financially unstable?"
Cay Clubs, only recently formed in the past decade, is betting that people will continue to buy expensive second homes, boat slips, and condominiums. Plus, they recently acquired the Turtle Kraals, Half Shell, and A&B Lobster House restaurants.
Remember, during the go-go-go real estate craze of the past few years, hotels in Key West were being bought up, closed, and turned from transient rentals to condominiums. Now that buyers are nearly non-existent, what will happen to the hundreds of hotel rooms stuck in limbo? What if the whole enchilada goes belly up....will we be left holding the bag?
With most of the Cay Clubs holdings in Florida, aren't they particularly sensitive to market shocks? Since Florida is suffering the biggest declines in real estate, should we worry about one of the largest developers here in our backyard? Think about this: in only the past 2.5 years, Cay Clubs has acquired at least 8 Florida Keys locations.
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309 comments:
1 – 200 of 309 Newer› Newest»Hi, I think many folks will be adversly affected because the Cay Clubs is over extended and has had limited successes. I hope I'm wrong and that their plans are good for the community. Please give your readers updates on the Cay Club activities.
I wonder why Dave Clark sent e-mails to all the employees and told them their jobs were secure with the merger? Someone is not telling the truth. Could it be Frank Rego or Dave Clark? It makes one wonder.
Every day is a new day in this market and economy. Dave Clark works day and night to keep things on the up and up. Unless you truly know him, you'd know that your comments about him, personally and professionally are incorrect. It's always easy and cliche to label a developer in a negative light. His intentions have never been anything but good. Having lived here, locally, for over 20 years, his goal is to help the Keys become a resort destination and to give people a wonderful product as well as keep employees in their jobs. But, as in any business, there are situations where you need to look at what needs to be changed and changes need to be made. Regarding what Rego said, both comments are correct- the market is slow and they are facing a merger who needs them to be as efficient as possible. Sometimes, Dave is faced with situations where he has to do what he never imagined having to- including the lay-offs. You are talking about a privately owned company (not some corporation with public funds) which faces opportunities and struggles each and every day.
Those big wigs at Cay Clubs continue to live their lavish lifestyles, while their dedicated employees got laid off. The employees didn't even get their earned vacation pay or any kind of severance pay. I do not see the good intentions here.
The big wigs at Cay Clubs continue to live their lavish lifestyle while the dedicated employees got laid off. Not only did they get laid off with no warning, but they did not receive their earned vacation pay or severance pay. I do now see the good intentions.
Again, "he works day and night to keep things on the up and up". Not "he is on the up and up". I suppose, through these trying times (every possible issue relating to real estate is compromised...high insurance rates, high taxes, slow economy, etc.), he probably feels far from being "on the up and up". But for the record, please state his criminal background. There is none. Please tell me one brokerage (of which the only ones owned or operated by the Cay Clubs companies are Waterfront Resort Realty, LLC- 5 offices, Ft. Lauderdale to Key West) or broker who does background checks on their licensed associates. I've yet to meet a realtor who had to submit his or her background history when signing on with a brokerage (given they don't make salaries, receive benefits, etc.). If they were criminals, I suppose they wouldn't have a license. Obviously, you don't know him. If you really do, please, again, show me the criminal record. Then we can all believe your accusations. Thanks.
I so wish people would stop trashing Cay Clubs and Dave Clark. Cay Clubs is a business, just as any other, making difficult decisions trying to make it through in this trying economy. When things are good and successful and growth was happening, everyone wanted in and Dave was a genius. Now that things have slowed down it is almost sad at how quickly people forget. There are things in life that we cannot control. Even in good times, Cay Clubs has been portrayed in a less than flattering light. Now that times are not as good, the vultures are circling and in my opinion way too happy to see someone's hard work and dreams struggling. Many in the community have seen Cay Clubs potential and welcomed them and the business they have brought to the keys, others have continually bad mouthed and tried to destroy their reputation with unfounded and almost ridiculous reasoning. Cay Clubs has been one of the most genourous, and community minded businesses in the Keys. They supported countless sports teams, school acivities, every festival and cause brought before them, underprivileged kids, cancer victims, every community service organization that needed anything, and not for the recognition but because of the generosity of Dave Clark. He is truly a kind and compassionate individual who wants to help everyone and give back to the community. If the layoffs were abrupt, it is because "the company," Dave Clark, tried every avenue to avoid having to do this. Unfortunatly, in a business sometimes hard decisions have to be made. That is the bottom line. No one likes it, least of all the owners and management of Cay Clubs. I am sure that things will improve, they always do. Please try and see things from all perspectives, not just the small narrow view of the of the happiness of seeing successful people struggle. There are no silver spoons in Cay Clubs, just many hardworking family people trying to make a company work and profitable.
I bet whoeever posted that last comment is still getting their paychecks and health benefits. I once thought Cay Clubs was a good company, but not any more.
For the record I am not recipiant of a Cay Club paycheck or health insurance, but a person who has asked for significant donations on this community's behalf always to be treated with kindness and usually given more than I asked for.
Hmmm...wow, it's amazing that Cay Clubs is the only company in history to do lay-offs in a tough market and restructure process. I'm from factory-town, where the words "Lay offs" were a very common and expected phrase used by almost everyone I knew. It happened each and every time there was a slow-down cycle in the market. And it has been happening for as long as I've been alive. It actually happens at least once a year, usually, and people most likely get called back to work when things grow. Now, lay offs are happening because of companies moving to other countries to manufacture for less cost. I can promise you they (CC)won't do that. But lay-offs are just that...not forever firings.They are probably trying to cut back until times are good again. I'll bet you'll still have at least, if not double, your vacation time and probably a raise, when and if times turn around and you wish to return (most likely you will not, though, as it seems you are very upset). Right now, they had to do what they had to do and it is absolutely unfortunate. Anyone in the Keys, though, with a strong work ethic, no debilitating addiction and skills for any type of job can make probably as much, if not more, than they were making with Cay Clubs...BUT I do hear people don't get the same perks anywhere else as they do with Cay Clubs (that's so greedy of them to pay toward even waitresses health benefits plans, so I've heard).... Have you thought of submitting a bill for your vacation pay due? Try it. I'm sure they'll work with you. Last, but not least, I know everyone always wants to bash the big guy but, in the end, if it were some New York or Fort Lauderdale development organization, where do you think all the money would go back to for which community? THEIRS...New York, Ft. Lauderdale, etc...Cay Clubs goes HERE...so think about the positive when you decide to scream about the negative. Again, if you met Dave, you would probably realize pretty quickly that he is a down to earth, good hearted man with big visions and dreams for his HOME COMMUNITY. He lives here. He works here. His entire family is here. Do you think he wants to do good things or bad? He is ultimately the most kind and thoughtful developer I've ever met and his intentions are, without a question, to make things great and move forward with his big-picture vision. Until then, I hope you find employment and work on receiving your vacation benefits.
I personally think that none of us were laid off for personal reasons. The company was in trouble and the answer was get rid of staff as fast as we can. It is not personal its business right? We all know that this affects us personally but most of us were over paid or were hired because we were either employees of Earthmark once or related to D. Clark or B. Graham(or went to Graham's church)I don't believe that either gentleman was a "Crook" but I think they turned a deaf ear a lot of times to make the sale. One reader wrote in defense that D. Clark did not have a criminal background...this is correct he does not but the writer did not mean D. Clark they meant Some of the folks that B. Graham have allowed to sell for Cay Clubs.
I am in belief that Cay Clubs has no idea how to manage their money. They allow outlandish expenses to go by with out the blink of an eye. and all of those poor investors that were promised their lease back money and had to call practically everyday to see when they would get their check....That was D. Clark's fault...here is how it goes certain people request that investors money be released and D. Clark postpones it until they are absolutely threatening to sue. Because D. Clark uses their money to help him buy more properties, when the money would be placed in a secure escrow account from the beginning. There were many things that were not quite on the up and up at Cay Clubs. And Unless you worked there you wouldn't know that so I am glad that D. Clark gave your organization money but understand he only donates with an underlying reason behind it.
I think it is so sweet that his assistant keeps coming to his defense.
I don't think Cay Clubs realized that most people live paycheck to paycheck to support themselves and their families. I think steps could have been taken to at least pay them some kind of severance pay, help with health insurance, vacation pay, but they didn't. At that time I lost all respect for Cay Clubs.
I do know that there was a situation where a bank they were dealing with to finance one of the developments promised to charge one price for each unit (more than 350 units) in order to secure funds necessary in the event of a down-turn in economic viability; then turned around, after finalizing the deal and took 3 times as much. This left them in a situation where they'd either lose the project entirely (and everyone's investment potential)or have to hold off on the optional lease back payments for a period of time, working with the clients to pay a certain amount, incrementally, over a period of time. It's a good thing that the investors actually own the properties and can do with it what they wish (including rent it out on their own to help cover their carry costs or try and sell it). Most people were paid the monies due on time, but some were not; that is true. They are working toward payoffs, though. They sold the company planes and other things to help move things along more quickly. But in any leaseback option, it is just that. An option.
There are several hundred people who sell Cay Clubs properties, many of whom have no employment within the company. Any realtor can sell the properties. Maybe they should conduct background checks on them all. But that would be difficult, as anyone in the world can sell their units. Anyone with a sales license or a connection to someone with one. If anyone has a criminal background, hopefully, their ability to sell very well could be hindered by licensing issues; but there may be cases where there are questionable people referring sales or becoming involved in the process. I'm sure there are people working all over the Keys with questionable backgrounds. But D. Clark and B. Graham aren't one of those people.
Every company has opportunities and challenges with budget control and, obviously, it appears they are working toward a more efficient budgeting standard. There were unfathomable times when real estate was the buzzword in every investor's daily conversations. Stocks were sour and everyone and their brother wanted to invest in something they could feel, touch, visit, send their clients and family mambers to enjoy. And they did. When times are like that, there is sound reason to indulge the clients and investors (and, in this case, many employees). D.Clark was definitely not a "greedy crook" when it came to paying his staff and offering benefits, company-wide (no matter what position). I speak with several grocery store clerks, waitresses, hotel workers, etc. who are unable to receive any health or 401k benefits from their well-known places of employment. I can assure you that everything, when necessary, changes to better handle the situation at hand and the potential to continue to offer the 1,120 people the salaries and benefits that they do (80 people were laid off, throughout all of the organization...less than 10%). WCI laid off 75% of theirs over 1 year ago (no call backs yet, still). They are a much older and larger company than CC. They must also be exuberant, careless, crooked. Or maybe they recognized a need to restructure their team, due to the circumstances at hand. For whatever reasons, companies will continue to trim expenses, when it becomes apparent that they should. And giving to the community? That seems to be quite one-sided to think that someone who gives, does so only for personal underlying agendas. Most people (I truly believe especially D. Clark) give for the purpose of helping. Projection (look it up) is a terrible cancer. And as the old cliche goes, you shouldn't judge unless you've walked a mile in a man's flip flops. Root for more growth in the RE market and economic conditions (and especially for lower hurricane incidences and insurance rates)...and I'm sure you'll likely be called back to your position to continue receiving your pay and benefits. And, just for the record, B. Graham lost most of his employees (including family members and friends) in the restructure. People are always going to feel slighted, especially until their jobs are returned, but know that each and everyone that I know, who work for CC, is working diligently and tirelessly to get things to great.
Is B. Graham still employed by CC and,if so, in what capacity?
Does anyone have knowledge of what is happening with the Clearwater Cay Club's plans to build a large resort?
I think you people are missing the point...the big picture. The layoff are irrelevant...what about all of the investors that are in foreclosure or are going bankrupt? Many of these people bought under false pretenses and were told outright lies and exagerations. And Dave Clark (and the other top guns) knew this but did nothing to stop it. Also what about all the mortgage fraud?
Massive fraud/misrepresentation exists:sales,appraisals,loans,resales,securities,et al.
Money spent like drunken sailors and lies told ala crack addicts(money in this case)
Listen to this presentation from Ricky Stokes...someone is stepping over the line. What a crook!!!!!!
http://reinclub.audioacrobat.com/deluge/5e4e949c-f962-9f4d-2d89-c7b4afabc5ea.mp3
That Ricky Stokes - what a sales pitch! It did not sound good, professional, or believable. Typical boiler room stuff - but not executed very well. Am I the only one who could tell he was reading from a pitch!
A few gems I heard that stuck out: He said, "I can pretty much guarantee you'll make money with us."
If he is, as he said, "one of the top three executives in the company", it does not make his organization sound reputable.
I would be very skeptical of the "instant equity position" he promises. In a declining market, how can this exist?
And how about the priviledge of the "cay clubs membership fee". Here is what you get: "it goes up in value just like your property does". But wait, Ricky gives away the membership to the seven people "lucky" enough to get in during the conference call.
You know, I really didn't have much knowledge of Cay Clubs and their strategy. But I have to say, if this pitch is any indication, I would not deal with them.
THANK YOU ANONYMOUS FOR POSTING THIS CONFERENCE CALL LINK. People should listen to it and share their opinions.
What was the date of the call?
Cayo Dave,
You are very welcome. I was happy to post some concrete evidence since "Anon on 7/11" wanted me to provide proof. Just because Dave and Ricky don't have criminal records does NOT mean they are not crooks.
The presentation was made a little over a year ago (399 days to be exact). See the 9th episode down on this page:
http://www.pluggd.com/channel/episodes/the_real_estate_investor_network?page=4
There are so many lies/exaggerations that I can't count them all in this long presentation, but one that is pertinent today is about his exit strategy. I am trying to find the spot in the recording where he quotes a time frame....was it 2 months? He has NEVER helped his clients sell their properties. He makes WAY more money selling developer ones. His clients are begging him to buy back their properties before they go bankrupt.
Here is another gem. 3rd one down:
http://www.beltlawfirm.com/current-investigations.html
Ricky says on the tape that owners will get their leaseback check in 45 days! Hahaha
Yet another lie: The buyer get an immediate equity position, sometimes as much as 20%, but he says he won't quote exact numbers. Uh, wait Ricky, isn't 20% a number?
How sad and ridiculous some of these comments are. Most businesses have lean times and staff reductions to cut costs. I grew up in a town with a defense plant. There were layoffs and call backs. The employees didn't waste their energy bad mouthing the company, they got other positions to take care of their families until they were called back or found other jobs with more stability. That is just business. As far as the real estate business, 399 days ago is a long time. At that time record growth and profit had occurred in the real estate market. If you want a safe investment, leave your money in the bank collecting 2 to 3 percent. Real estate, the stock market, commodity trading, all involve risk. They also have a much larger payoff potential. But the risk is there and if you take that risk, you also take responsiblity for that risk. If the market conditions were the same as 2 years ago, there would be no blog. We would all be sitting pretty on our investments trying to figure out how to spend all our money. Instead, we have people who want to blame others for the problems they have in life. How sad is that. Grow up, get out there and do something other than complain about your life. Look around you, there are people with real problems. If you were laid off, I am sorry, go get another job, this is America, the land of opportunity. If you bought Cay Clubs condos and they didn't explode into a cash cow, try and make things work. Use your head, and at the very least take responsibility for your choices. Stop bad mouthing people and investments, you are just making it harder for the others who invested in Cay Clubs and all the people who are still employed by Cay Clubs. Misery loves company, we all wish we had someone else who could be responsible for our decisions when they don't turn out like we hoped, but we will not hesitate to accept the credit when things are good. Such is human nature. My hope for all of the people who were affected negatively by a lay off or an investment is that their attitude will change and help them focus not so much on the negative and who is to blame, what a pointless waste of time and energy, but to try and turn their thoughts and actions to positive solutions. Get a job, sell your investment, find other investments to help you cope with your loss but for heaven's sake, stop trashing people's reputations, businesses, lives,to make yourself feel better.
I just want everyone to know that I was a layoff, and I don't hold anything against Cay Clubs. I got another job about 2 weeks after being laid off, I believe that Cay Clubs gave me the experience I needed to put on a resume to get something of equal standards. Not really equal pay, but Cay Clubs over paid a lot of people. I hope they do turn things around because I would consider going back. I really liked my job.
So if you give to the sick and poor that immediately deems you on the "up and up"? Last time I checked, that was called talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I can tell he and his company care so much for the community -- they've gone so far as to have the folks that "survived" the lay offs sign non-competes. Brillant strategy.
Any Key employee who could take the company's information and sell/ use it to set up shop on the side while still employed by them to become instant competition is customary, Lori. Sorry, but you are the only one asked to do this as your two best friends set up shop and we needed to ensure you weren't working with them and making the big bucks with us to help fund the other business. It's funny that as soon as we said our attorneys would be contacting your [als to get our pictures off their website-which they (the lawyers) didn't- and you were the only one who heard that, very shortly after, they took them off. And you claimed to have no idea about the whole thing.
Clearwater Cay Clubs is currently a large resort and they are working toward making it greater (they've already bulldozed the strip-mall building in front of it). They plan to build a few new buildings, retail area, and waterslide pool area (besides the two pools/ clubhouses/ work-out facility/ massage rooms/ computer center/ play areas/ marina that is currently there.
"What about all the investors who are going bankrupt- foreclosures going to do..." Investors EVERYWHERE are in similar dilemmas IF they lied to their MORTAGE companies (SALES PEOPLE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT THEIR CLIENTS SAY OR DO TO GET A LOAN- THEY DON'T HAVE ANY TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT'S IN A PERSON'S BANK ACCOUNT-THEY RELY ON MORTGAGE BANKERS TO DO THAT DUE DILIGENCE AND VERIFY THE BUYER'S FINANCIAL CAPABILITIES.. AND THEIR BUYERS TO BE HONEST ABOUT THEIR FINANCIAL ABILITIES.
The problem is that people in general do what they do to be considered "investors". Do they really have the ability to pay mortgages that they are responsible for? Obviously, country-wide, not always. Did they lose stock and end up owning NOTHING, if the market sours? No. They own a property, which they can rent (see VRBO.com, Homeaway.com, etc)... or SELL (when the market sweetens or an opportunity presents itself)through ANY REALTOR to recoup their costs. Or they can use it. It's funny that you assume CC is the only company who has people who bought their units and, due to the market freeze and mortgage increases, the investors face issues. I know people everywhere; buying places, stating their income through banks anywhere, saying they're millionairs and trying to buy 20 properties at a time, hoping to flip them (see MIAMI- CC is not there)...then ending up in a nice little pickle. Wake up. Any buyer buying anything should be well enough versed in understanding the responsibility of owning real estate. Mortgage rates increase, taxes rise, insurance can double, assessments can emerge. It is the owners responsibility to understand everything before making a decision. Even in the event that there is an optional property management agreement (or optional lease-back offer), that is an option. There are several very happy owners of CC units who are happy to own in places such as the Keys, Clearwater, etc. and they look at the long-term investment potential (because they are truly financially able to hold up through any short-term down-turn)that is very real. They patiently await the market to turn. Any investor in real estate needs to be a long termer- that is the only way to realize the potential return on investment. Anyone hoping to buy in, then turn around and flip right away or have no cost to them for anything, is bound to figure out that you can't get anything for nothing.
Regarding 7/17/07 comments...has anyone sought legal action?
Legal action for what- buying a condo and getting one? Some people are unable to receive property management leases (lease-backs) because their mortgage companies (usually 2nd home mortgages) forbid it. Most people received their optional property management lease funds (if both parties opted to move forward with the lease) and some are waiting for remainig balances. Some will have to wait for the entire amount (thus they can lease/ rent it out on their own- or sell it- if they're in a financial rut), as CC is regaining momentum in the bull market- and regaining strength from the massive amount the bank took from the development mentioned earlier.
B. Graham is the head of sales.
Mr. Stokes didn't work for CAy Clubs but he also didn't commit any crimes. He was a airline traffic controller and pilot and turned into a realtor. He sells a lot of units, as I'm told. All his tapes are first sent to lawyers to check for any securities breaches or problems. He holds conferences and does web seminars to sell CC units. I believe 399 days ago, he probably had every intention to help re-sell the units he sold. I believe most people who bought or sold real estate 399 days ago had the same assumption. Then look what happened...CC had to go and crash the market- those damn crooks. They must have been in North Carolina (they're not), Miami (they're not), California (they're not) and thousands of other cities (they're not) to have made everyone feel like they're in the same boat. Oh, wait- everyone is in the same boat but it's always such fun to blame the people closest for the big picture problems.
Please see heading: Has Cay Clubs Bit off More Than it can chew? The answer is: YES Both the employees and the investors can tell you that answer. They are the ones that got hurt with the poor financial management of Cay Clubs. Cay Clubs could have made better financial decisions, but they didn't, and that is where they are at fault.
Take a look at the top 20 public Real Estate firms in the world- WCI, Centex, etc..they're losing money in droves while CC is continuing to at least break even- so, compared to whom is CC mismanaged? They don't even get public funds (they're not a corporation, they're a private company). It is sad that you, the bloggers who choose to slam Cay Clubs are actually causing the investors and the employees the most damage. Little by little, your words (usually un-educated guesses and rumors) have the potential to whittle away the very thing that gives the investors or the employees a chance- success. In time, investors will likely realize the full potential of their real estate purchases, if they in fact are as financially stable as they stated to their mortgage lenders. If, that is, the company doesn't get smeared by you, the rumor millers. And the employees probably also appreciate your support- there are 1180 people and their families who depend on the success of CC and, if you are able to accomplish your mission as National Enquirer-style smear agents, we'll soon have another 500 or more properties to clog up our already too-full and painfully slow moving MLS (local real estate sales inventory)because we'll lose one of our biggest employers in the Keys. And less employers= less jobs= less money for people to keep their homes.
What's also confusing is when I hear that people are saying that Cay Clubs has "raised the property values in the Keys"...it actually sounds to me like a compliment. The truth is, take a look at the MLS (every one has a realtor friend- or do a search on the internet for Florida keys MLS)..you'll quickly learn that it is the sellers THROUGHOUT THE KEYS who hope (and succeed) in selling their once-bought-for-under- $100,000-5-years-ago-property for over a million $$. Now, anyone with a waterfront trailer can sell it, become millionaires, and turn around and buy a Bentley and a 10 bedroom mansion (elsewhere, of course- most likely in the factory towns where EVERYONE was laid off- thanks China and the market in general- Cay Clubs had nothing to do with that)...
Can't we all focus on the issues that are truly undermining our community, as a whole...for instance, helping to create additional laws and licensing requirements to help preserve and protect our reefs and waters (instead of exploiting them for the benefit of every tournament/tourist/boat owner with the ability to pay a small fee to do whatever damage they can)...and how about the billboard stating "Big Dick and the Extenders...see all-nude shows at Woody's" for our innocent children to be involuntarily subject to and tainted by? Or, worse, what about the unfathomable alchohol and drug problem here, in the Keys, and the effects it has on children all around us... "Mommy's drunk again...hung out at the Carribean Club last night till 4 and now is hung over..." These are serious issues- much more than a handful of investors who may not get as fat of a wallet they had hoped to stuff into their pockets. So keep trashing the very company that a: gives so many people jobs and benefits, b: gives investors their investment potential and c: gives the community the financial resources to help combat the pervading issues that we truly need to be solving...and you can call yourselves modern day heroes. People need to wake up and utilize their energies, laptops and minds to solve big-picture issues. That would be most appreciated.
Cayo Dave, you are so smart; why do you focus on such petty issues instead of the more serious ones?
FYI
Look it up- you are all smart and web savvy...Public companies- real estate...here goes: Toll Brothers (TOL)- stock went from $36 per share in January to $21 in July (this year); Pulte Homes (PHM)- from $36 per share to $19 D. R. Horton (DHI)- from $32 to $16; K.B. Home (KBH) from $56 to $30; Lennar (LEN)- from $56 to $30; WCI (WCI)- from $24 to $9; Tarragon (TARR)- from $14 to $4; Beazer (BZH) from $46 to $15; Tousa (TOA)- from $11 to $3; Hovanian (HOV)- from $37 to $12.
These are some of the largest PUBLICLY traded (publicly funded- Cay Clubs is still private) where the shareholders obviously lost more than half their money over the last 6 months. Much worse scenario than a handful of investors getting their lease-back checks late or having to downsize a little and have some layoffs.
Please educate yourselves before judging and also please remember that you are potentially putting several investors and employees positions at risk when you choose to make uninformed comments about one of the Florida Keys largest employers. I'm sure everyone will high five you for your wonderful comments when they end up without a job- glad you had the time and energy to formulate opinions.
Whew! That a lot to comment about.
Cayo Dave, you are so smart; why do you focus on such petty issues instead of the more serious ones?
Thanks for the backhanded compliment. Is this a petty issue? If Cay Clubs, as another anonymous commenter stated, is one of the largest employers in the Keys, isn't this worthy of discussion? And what about the issue of packaging and selling off our community?
I'm sure everyone will high five you for your wonderful comments when they end up without a job- glad you had the time and energy to formulate opinions.
If anyone loses their job at Cay Clubs it is not my fault. Cay Clubs was on a wild buying binge and now has serious issues to overcome if they hope to succeed.
helping to create additional laws and licensing requirements to help preserve and protect our reefs and waters (instead of exploiting them for the benefit of every tournament/tourist/boat owner with the ability to pay a small fee to do whatever damage they can)...and how about the billboard stating "Big Dick and the Extenders...see all-nude shows at Woody's" for our innocent children to be involuntarily subject to and tainted by? Or, worse, what about the unfathomable alchohol and drug problem here, in the Keys, and the effects it has on children all around us... "Mommy's drunk again...hung out at the Carribean Club last night till 4 and now is hung over..."
To this anonymous poster - why on earth did you move to the Keys? To change it? Sounds to me like you moved to the wrong place.
Cayo Dave and other commentators,
I appreciate the comments and it all helps me to gain perspective about me and our company. Obviously the real estate industry has changed radically in the past 5 years and the current downturn has been steep and harsh. As a Keys resident and business owner I am trying to do the best I can to insure the survival of Cay Clubs. I have made many mistakes along the way and will surely make many more. I would like to point out a few things.
1. I live here and have kids in school here. Please consider that when you use terms like "Crook" or "Criminal" to describe me. If you feel that truly is the case you should have the courage to identify yourself when you make the comment or at least take the time to email me daveclark@cayclubs.com or call me at 305-747-4870 Cell. I would really like the opportunity to see how you formulated that opinion of me so I can correct it.
2. There are many companies who have made large purchases in the Keys over the past 5 years. Isn't it better for the Keys and the people who live here to have a company that is located here, loves the community, cares about the environment and takes the time necessary to fully engage the community before moving forward with re-development plans make purchases than an outside company with no long term commitment or local employees?
3. Statistics are funny things. They can be twisted to support any argument particularly if the author is prone towards a position. When making comments about our company and utilizing statistics or hard data to make a point, it is always helpful to the reader if there is a comparison set of data to consider. I think anyone who analyses the performance of our company in both the "good times" of the past or the present difficult times we are facing now will see that we have fared well in comparison to other companies in our peer group.
All of the companies that operate in the real estate industry are facing the hardest times I have ever seen and the Keys are no exception. We are all trying to do what we can to manage our way through this period and I have had to make some of the hardest decisions of my career in the past 6 months. If I had a better crystal ball, I would have done many things differently but I cannot change the past. Hopefully the changes we have made will enable us to make it through these difficult times and be a better company in the future. For the employees who had to be laid off, please accept my apology. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
Finally, I am available to the community through my email and phone included above. I love this place and the people who make it the special place it is. While I know there will always be people who disagree with me and our companies plans, it is my sincere desire to find the right balance of profit and community good as we move our projects forward. I will always try to learn from the diverse opinions of the people who also love these islands and call them home. I respect every-one's right to differ with me but I do wish that the people with strong opinions would at least make the effort to contact me, find out who I am and what I believe in before they judge me or my intentions.
Dave Clark
Why did I move here? Think about it. Was the Big Dick and the extenders billboard here when I moved here- no it showed up 7 years later. I probably wouldn't have moved here had I seenit then. You don't learn about the cancers of a community until you become enmeshed. It's so sad to see all the alchoholics and drug users destroying their families lives, though. I moved here for my job, fyi. It is a great place- no doubt- unbelievable beauty, perfect weather, lots to do in nature, mostly nice people. But, sadly, issues infest...we are known well for being a little drinking village with a fishing problem..funny but not really (if you're the kid of the drinker. Were you one? I was. It's not fun.
Re-packaging and selling off the community: See "Sellers"...if the darned people would just stop selling their properties and trying to become insta-milionaires, CC would have nothing to buy (and package and sell). If you truly believe that once a prime location property comes up for sale- that a developer isn't going to buy it; you, my friend are sadly mistaken. At least it's a local developer- not one from NYC or some other place that all the proceeds will go back into their home towns- to help their people and their non-profits and Community development initiatives. Package and sell our community...I thought we were in America where it is a free market- see Key West- not a single darned spot of space on waterfront or Duval that hasn't been sold to Corporate Franchises. CC isn't a Corporate franchise. They're just trying to make a living and offer people opportunities to own a piece of paradise. They find the properties, either by looking on the MLS listings or by owners of land/ hotels/ etc calling THEM up and asking to be bought. Damn crooks :).
So, times are hard !! its a cycle, it is funny how none of the people that have done very well with dave clarks companies are not speaking up!! I did , however things are not good for me either! But like any investment ,It is what it is an Investment !and as an ex employee(realtor, look up that code of ethics!!!!)l, no criminal background) of dave clark and barry graham, no where in the training manuel did it say , pull out the gun, place to investors head and collect their down payment.
Somebody told me once jump off that bridge? i thought about it and it was my decision to jump ,the same goes for all of the investors in this down turn real estate market all over the country not just with the cay clubs.
Those of you that do not know dave clark should, before you judge him and his company, to sum it up doo doo happens and were all big boys and girls ! P.s. look at other investments that people make. enron etc!!!!
You go dave !! see you in the better half of this decade , when as cycles do turn around . Your friend and investor from the Great Smokey Mountains.
signed realtor and friend of dave clark
Everyone is feeling a little skittish now, with the way the economy is, but, to lay all the blame on Dave Clark, is ludicrous. I don't believe he tried to screw anyone out of money, he just has too many people with their hands out wanting without working for it. I have seen it first hand, and those people should be ashamed of themselves!!
Dave should wake up and weed out the people that take take take without any concern. Yes, he is TOO generous and he should take heed of these money grabbers.
Wake up, Dave. Take a good hard look at your staff and see some of them as who they really are!
Ricky Stokes, as an example, is your new sales manager? Give me a break! Sure Graham used his position to get family/friends into the company, but Ricky Stokes????????????
There are a few more in your company that uses and abuses, and I mean that in more than one way, that should be contended with. Sometimes you, Dave, should step out of the box and take a long hard look. You might be surprised!!
As for investing in real estate, it is an investment not to be taken lightly.
Please do not put ALL the blame onto Dave. Please listen carefully to who is giving you the information you are seeking. If it looks and sounds too good to be true, find out the truth then do what you have to do. Don't rely on someone, let's say a ruthless, unethical real estate person, could this be Rego, Stokes and others?, to give you the correct information. Listen to the sale and if it sounds like a used car salesman, go and get more information from an attorney or a reputable real estate person.
Dave cannot be a babysitter to these types of people and he should not. He is the developer, not the real estate broker. As the old saying goes "buyer beware".
Lots of people (especially the CC sales people who made big salaries plus a cut of everything- instead of commission based pay only) will be ticked about Stokes bcs stokes made 80+ % of sales and the others benefited financially from his success- now he finally gets recognition. Look closely and carefully and you see that he is quite bright, talented, organized, disciplined, motivated, efficient. The best I've seen. Great team, great message, great results. Works hard to help get through the leaseback setback issues. Once anyone gets to know him, there's definite respect (unless you hate him cuz he proved great results and you or your brother lost out on your fat salary and produced little). Always used attorneys to sift through info before submitting to public. Continues to be productive even when market crashed. His systems and process flow is second to none (was an air traffic controller so learned to be a perfectionist and has same type of team working fo him- I think was in military, too- fighter pilot or something). Sorry you lost your big fat paycheck that he provided (sales is heartbeat of any organization- he sells more than anyone by far). Thanks Dave for speaking up. You're a good man- great vision, hard worker, diligent, determined, focused. You've provided many with much. I hope everything works out for you, your family, your company and your goals. This market sucks- but you'll pull through. You always do. What doesn't kill you definitely makes you stronger. You'll be a big, beefy brute by the end of the day. Pray for no more hurricanes! Cheers to you and yours for your efforts.
Rego is not a sales person and Stokes is reputable. Dave hires managers to hire folks and babysit. And he looks for gifts and tries to utilize them the best he can- makes changes when obvious/ necessary. Lots to be tweaked in the months to come though, including more intensive service training, web site information enhancements, further restructuring, etc. Hopefully no more layoffs, but then again, who knows- change happens. Maybe they should build in China- much cheaper, easier, and you'd just never know if anyone was a screwup because the communication barrier would prevent the rumor mill from infesting :)Ha! Is that why all the manufacturers arer relocating? Hmm...
With the Stock Market crashing and real estate in a slump- what are the best investments out there now?
How many developments are there in Cay Clubs? Any new ones on horizon? Didn't Dave Clark develop Mariners Club in Key Largo? That's a good place and much nicer than most condos in upper keys.
Dave Clark lives on my street and although his house is pretty nice it is definitely not on Millionare's Row- most people on our street have small businesses or are realtors. He's a decent man with a big family- good size house but not huge like most people in his position would have- no deep dockage or acreage. I don't think he is greedy or pretentious. He seems nice and down to earth to me. I know he likes to fish and scuba dive and he fishes with his kids on Sunday.
TO Dave Clark
I dont know how you would call Dave a Developer he has not yet completed a project and sales memberships to what???
The man has not done one thing that was promise to the buyers as such as nitely rentals at Clearwater and wheres the the water park?????
And he`s causing alot of people to go Bankrupt by not paying the lease back money to them that he owes.
But He still FLYS around on private planes and lives very lavish.
HE`S not suffering like his investor,he owes the money and not paying.
When things are tight you tighten your belt to make sure you can pay your DEBTS.(LIKE NOT FLYING AROUND IN JETS SPENING ALL THAT MONEY WHEN YOU COULD BE PAYING LEASEBACKS)
How do you sleep at night?????????
To the last commentator:
The first thing the company did was sell the planes when the downturn occurred. We did that months ago in addition to cutting out all expenditures on anything not absolutely necessary to keep our core operations going. I truly understand your comments and am available at daveclark@cayclubs.com or on my cell 305-747-7870 to discuss with you what I've done personally to ensure I have done everything in my power to make sure our company makes it through this harsh correction. Your comments are incorrect and I can prove that to you if you wish to discuss it.
I am sorry to hear all of this, I loved my job at Cay Clubs up in the Corporate office and was part of the layoffs. I knew it wasn't anything against me, it was business. I have found another job but I hope that when things are put back together at the Cay Clubs that I get a call back to rejoin the team. I wish I could have helped to get things back in order.
On that note: Any word on whether CC might start calling back some of those jobs?
So let me get this straight...Barry Graham is no longer with the company and Ricky Stokes has taken his place?
Mr. Clark...it seems when someone asks you questions, you tell them to call your cell phone. Why don't you post your answers for all to read? Yes-where is the Waterpark?Shopping District? Exhibit 12 to the prospectus of the Declaration of C,C,&R states "Condominium units shall not be leased EXCEPT in connection with their use as VACATION RESORT ROOMS FOR SHORT-TERM rental purposes".The C,C,&R were given to us long before we closed on any loan.Yet,June 28,2006 we receive a letter that says Cay Clubs is seeking elimination of the length of stay restriction.Hummmm...seems deceptive.Please post your answer for all of us to read.I am interested to see if the zoning board agrees with your answer.
I'm sure there are many people out there who are anxiously waiting to hear in a public blog the exact meaning of some language contained in Exhibit 12. My question of you is why are you afraid to identify yourself, call me, or email me to discuss offline your obvious detailed requests? I'm human and I have made many, many, many mistakes. I am also trying really hard to correct as many of them as I can and be open and upfront in the process. If you do choose to call or email me, I promise to answer in detail the best that I can and you can decide whether it's worthy to further publish on a blog.
The person probably will not leave a name on the blog as to not get singled out. If there isn't anything to hide, why can't it be posted for all to view? Surely you can do at least that for all the people with questions. Then there won't be any misquoting of what you say and/or mean. Don't you agree? This would be a fair and honest thing to do to clear things up.
I am happy to answer any questions so long as I understand what is being asked. My purpose in giving my personal email and phone number was to allow anyone who wishes more detailed information the opportunity to get it directly.
The waterpark and commercial center are both planned future amenities at Clearwater Cay Club. We are working towards establishing a realistic time-line for them but given the current lending environment and general deterioration of real estate it is hard to do. When we started Clearwater Cay Club we had many parcels to assemble and goals to attain. Many of those have been achieved and we have many more to do. The Clearwater Cay Club was a 5 year project at least when times were good. With the new challenges in the economy, the time-line has been extended before we can commence construction and I cannot give a hard date at this time. The good news is that we own the commercial land, have demolished the old shopping center, the two abandoned gas stations have been torn down and new facilities are under construction there, we have taken over operation of the golf course and we are positioned well to move forward when it is financially viable to do so.
I am not sure what the question was regarding Exhibit 12. That seemed to be more of a statement
Thank you for your response. We do know that you are trying and doing your best. If you could just keep all of us informed as to what is going on with CC properties, it would be appreciated. Alot of people do not feel that Rego is on the up and up. He talks out of both sides of his mouth, making it up as he goes along?? You, Mr. Clark, have a vision and I do hope it succeeds.
In a previous blog, " Dave is kind, compassionate, generous".Maybe you have been too much of the above. Most developers I know do their business on a much more inconspicuous manner. Not donating to everyone with their hand out and/or helping every tom,dick or harry out of their personal financial binds(which you surely have done for many people). Might be something to think about. Getting too personally involved gets very difficult.
Dave has developed many places- Rolling River in Jacksonville, Heron's Glen in Fort Myers, Mariners Club, Key Largo; Little Harbor in Bahia Beach; Now, as Cay Clubs, he also does conversion project developments which are long-term process projects including Clearwater Cay Club, Las Vegas Cay Club; working on several others in the Keys and elsewhere.
If you're in the Keys, take a stroll into Mariners Club (Key Largo- MM 97.5- Ocean Side)...Everyone laughed at him when he began that project, too as it was between two trailer parks and looked like a filthy dump- they balked at the prices and told him he'd fall flat on his you know what...but he saw a vision- hence... see www.marinersclubkeylargo.com...Dave developed all of that (that's a local place I can direct you conchs to, given this is a Keys-based blog) then he split with EarthMark to start Cay Clubs.
He's been developing for 20+ years. RDG Florida Group became EarthMark (he developed with them for 16 years)- Dave was the primary developer- the others were investor partners- until the son of one of the primary investor partners decided he wanted to run the show...hence, the inception of Cay Clubs.
Several people left EarthMark to go with Dave (they witnessed daily his vision, skill, kindness, abilities- in very sharp contrast to the new chief of EarthMark)--many still continue to call him and tell him EarthMark is hitting the skids and want to join forces with Dave.
Barry Graham is still with the company; in fact, he is one of the partners. He's a great sales person- one of the very best. He's been working with Dave for over 10 years. I believe that Barry has sold out most of the projects that Dave developed. The only thing that changed with him is he was getting bogged down with administrative duties and being kept from doing what he does best- educate, motivate, recruit, sell.
Look around- many projects have been put on hold for financial reasons lately. I believe a place called Indigo Bay in Islamorada was on front page of newspaper- NOT a CC property- for not paying their bills. Projects are sitting pretty everywhere you look- a new hotel in Key Largo went for 6+ months with no roof- because they couln't afford it. Lease backs are being paid- ongoing process- at least no "poof-it's-gone-stock "situation. There are no jets in CC. Once in a while Dave flies to Clearwater or other projects (small prop plane) to oversee, plan, organize, move forward with things there. And to check in on all developments. He's been on one vacation in 3 years (Christmas time- Colorado). He's driven the same truck for 5 years. His kids go to public schools. He lives on a single small lot- no acres, no beach, no tennis courts, no 5 car garage, no dock, no GATED COMMUNITY (or Gate, for that matter), no Media room, no Workout Room. Lavish? Maybe to some- he does have a nice house he's been fixing up for the past few years- great details and electronics- great porch- but comparatively speaking, any restaurant owner/boat shop owner/lawyer/dentist in the Keys has as good of a property- or better.
He works hard and continuously to develop the projects he's initiated and moved forward on. Instead of shutting down projects CC buys- he runs them- to continue income for the investors until absolutely necessary to stop rentals for upgrades (see Keys Motel, Bayside, Sombrero).
Clearwater has been an ongoing pursuit for nightly rentals and should be there soon. There are lots of monthly rentals there. That's not nothing. Go there sometime and tell me it is a farce. Most people love that place (it's beautiful), in fact it's where spring training baseball teams stay when they're in town. And they always reserve for the next years to come. See www.clearwatercayclubs.com for photos/ info.
Mariner's Club took close to 10 years to develop, I believe (don't forget about the lovely Keys/ Florida permitting processes and other fun planning details and processes). But all of those pre-construction investors became millionaires (or really close to it) when they sold. Many others made/make their cash through rentals- monthly and weekly. Just a few FYIs, for the record. Obviously, again, don't judge until you stroll along in his lavishly lavish flip-flops.
Previous blogger, so what is your point? We all know about all that information. Sounds like you are VERY close to Dave.
Someone said he's obviously not a developer- obviously he is. I am VERY close to him. :)
Yes, they bit off more than they can chew. Not on purpose, they just weren't swallowing fast enough and eventually the bites added up to more than could be chewed at once. They needed to swallow a few bites before taking more. It looks like the only thing left to do at this point is to spit out a bit to make it easier to chew. Getting rid of lazy staff helps but now they are only chewing with a Mississippi mouthful instead of a full set.
LAZY STAFF?????
Not all of us were lazy staff members!!!
That is not fair to say that.
I was a very loyal staff member, and hope one day to be able to return. I hope that the company can turn itself around. I would have taken a very heafty pay cut to stay on board to help out the company. I believe in the company!
So let us move on to a solution. Do you have one, Dave? Are some of the higher up staff getting pay cuts to help with the monetary problems? Are you still selling properties and taking deposits on real estate? Are you going to get the real estate that has already been sold to investors set in stone and all the amenities in place so they can start the realization of income for all these investors? Please let us know how this is being dealt with. We are behind you with your vision. We just hope you get a plan in place before it is too late. Reply please.
That's correct Dave Clark is as honest as they come, a true "up and up" guy.
From Miami Herald Story.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194465.html
"Now the company says it's in a cash crunch, without enough money to cover lease-back agreements with as many as 140 condo buyers.
Where did the $46 million go? Most of it -- $41 million -- was paid out to Chief Executive Officer Dave Clark, President David Schwarz and their minority partners, according to corporate records and interviews with executives."
SUCKERS!
"Anonymous said...
LAZY STAFF?????
Not all of us were lazy staff members!!!
That is not fair to say that.
I was a very loyal staff member, and hope one day to be able to return. I hope that the company can turn itself around. I would have taken a very heafty pay cut to stay on board to help out the company. I believe in the company!"
I am sorry, I should have said overpaid staff instead of lazy. I am sure most weren't lazy. I don't know you or the salaries people were paid but one can only assume you were overpaid if you can take a hefty pay cut.
GEEEZ you all are very negative!
To the person who said "I am sorry, I should have said overpaid staff instead of lazy. I am sure most weren't lazy. I don't know you or the salaries people were paid but one can only assume you were overpaid if you can take a hefty pay cut."
I didn't even make 40k a year, so if you think that is overpaid? And Yeah I think going down to 30k a year would have been a heafty paycut, to me anyways, but I did like my job and I believed in the company and would have stayed if I could have.
And all of you who keep slamming Dave Clark...Are you Owners? or Former employees? or are you just bored and found this blog?
Actually, we are all concerned citizens. It doesn't matter in what capacity we know Mr. Clark or the CC company. What we all would like to know is what is going to be the solution to the problems? Can anyone answer that question in layman terms so everyone can understand? No "bashing" on this blog. Just realistic answers please.
Per the Miami Herald:
Comments
If anyone who has invested in Cay Club properties hasn't realized it as yet, we were ALL scammed.
Posted by: Chris
8/6/2007 7:43 PM
2846.1 Report as Violation
Avg 5.00, 4 votes
The Dave Clark?s, Barry Graham?s, Chris Brown?s, Ricky Stokes?s and Dave Schwarz's of this world give the real estate and development industry a bad name. Rumor has it that Barry Graham was once indicted back in the late ?80s or early ?90?s for a very similar ?get rich quick scheme? that landed him into a lot of trouble. You would think that he would learn, but instead he dove in face first and has recreated what he thought was a ?righteous? thing. I highly doubt that Dave?s record is all that clean either. In the end, they will wind up hurting a lot of people that trusted them and didn?t know better, such as all of the people they made a lot of misleading promises to and in turn, for example, sold a lot of product at his own church, McGregor Baptist Church (MBC) in Fort Myers, Florida. Ricky Stokes (also a member of MBC) is another component of the grass roots campaign that Barry and Dave created by selling the Cay Club Concept. They based their ?experience? as licensed Realtor?s to sell to buyers promising them more than 150% appreciation. Now that the market has adjusted, their pyramid scheme has caught up to them and they are scrambling to make their payments and in the end, the buyers are the ones that are getting hurt, not those mentioned above. I would hope that their creative financing schemes (leasebacks used to artificially raise property values without disclosing it to lenders, so they open up their own in-house mortgage company to get around it), promised appreciation (Immediate equity, Guaranteed rental income, Anticipated appreciation) and so forth will eventually catch the eye of the SEC!
Posted by:
8/6/2007 8:44 PM
2846.2 Report as Violation
Avg 4.80, 5 votes
Another Florida scam. Where is the FBI and why aren't these crooks in prison??
Posted by: Skumm
8/6/2007 9:23 PM
2846.3 Report as Violation
Avg 5.00, 2 votes
Cay Club and other developers have bought and paid for the Village of Islamorada elected officials. We need to get rid of this developmet trend and go back to just being our selves and not trying to be Miami Beach south. Locals are leaving the Keys in droves because they don't like this "build it bigger and higher" trend. The marinas are the lifeblood of the fishing industry and they are selling off dockspace and the fishing industry will die.
Posted by: Robert Page
8/6/2007 9:48 PM
2846.4 Report as Violation
Avg 5.00, 2 votes
As an independant contractor (providing property photography services) who was stiffed by Cay Clubs (to the tune of only a few thousand,)I have to repeat what I told them: the Florida Keys are populated by a close-knit community, where what goes around not only comes around...it does so quickly and with a vengeance. These clowns need to be very careful upon whom they dump!
Posted by: Barry Fitzgerald
8/6/2007 10:22 PM
2846.5 Report as Violation
Avg 5.00, 3 votes
The investors are victims! My wife and I purchased two units last year on the PROMISE of 15% instant return, Instant equity on the property, Garaunteed income once the rentals started, HEDGED (protected) from a Bubble! I knew they couldn't prevent a bubble but they said, "Waterfront real estate has never depreciated in the history of Florida." My agent researched the opportunity and provided the green light based on these promises. I'm willing to deal with the market depreciation as an investor but not with, 1) No 15% return to me (as of today) 2) No immediate income (due to their failure to be able to rent my units) 3) No immediate equity in the property due to their false over appraisals of the property.
So that makes them 4 for 4 on failed promises (thier waterfront property is depreciating!) - I'd say that is a criminal issue at least to the tune of 50% of my investment. Can you imagine the lives they are having an effect on? The Enron of the real estate industry.
Posted by: Clearwater muddied
8/7/2007 8:50 AM
2846.6 Report as Violation
Avg 3.66, 3 votes
PS Chris Brown is a marketing director, what does he know about the Real Estate market? What determines his ability to pass as an industry expert? More revenue from sales? How by offering larger leasebacks when you can't pay the exisiting leasebacks? And if you offer more leasebacks, shouldn't the first level of leasebacks be paid before you give you new buyers their leaseback monies? So if you are raising money to simply pay off old debt when does this cycle end. If there is enough appreciation how is it that people who purchased units 2 years ago can't sell for what they bought for? If leasebacks were offered in order to begin amenities which would increase the appreciation of units, how come no amenities have been started in 2 years? These are only a few of the questions that need to be asked. Many more questions deserve answers before you even think of buying something from this company. Do your due diligence and ask the right questions, Caveat Emptor! (BUYER BEWARE!)
Posted by: Concerned Consumer
8/7/2007 10:06 AM
2846.7 Report as Violation
Avg 5.00, 1 vote
It smells to me like the lawyers are now involved yet again in trying to make money off of peoples' misfortune. With the recent articles in the Herald, I believe that the attorneys have and will convince people that litigation is the answer. Most of us know this is not true that the only people who truly make money in such cases are the lawyers. If they can get the media "interested", which they have, most of the public sees the print media as "truth exposed" instead of "part of the story".
The real estate bubble is all over the news, every day, and the media portrays Cay Clubs as if they should not be affected by the real estate woes. My advice to the bandwagon, those investors jumping on with their woes,. is to be very careful. Real Estate is cyclical, it will come back around and hopefully your investment will pay off better than you had hoped. If I had invested in something, I would be very careful how I approached this. Trashing the company you invested with only makes it harder for everyone who has invested, even you. It will make it more difficult for this and other companies to pull out of the slump affecting not only jobs, but all investment options. It is like biting the hand that feeds you. Loyalty can make or break a company. Not only by the employees but the investors as well.
To the previous anonymous commenter -
I disagree. The market fundementals are what ultimately determines value. The emotionality that you are trying to control is gone. People who paid too much during the bubble may never, in their lifetime, see the value of the property higher than what they paid. That is, unless they are toddlers.
No wishing or positive spin will bring prices higher. Only lower inventory, increased demand, lower borrowing costs, and higher "value" will cause prices to rise.
I WAS a loyal employee. Some companies just shouldn't be trusted.
No lawyer would take a case just because the market went bad. So, obviously there must be other legal matters involved....and there are. So, stop singing that song and dance of "the Housing Bubble"
Barry Fitzgerald you never completed your work for CC. You were being paid for 1 year whether or not you took photos (monthly. Then, when told you aid to you to be "on call" for the month) were going to be put on a house by house basis (general real estate- realtors pay for that, not the company) but they wanted you to finish off your monthly service before giving you your check, you promised you would and NEVER SHOWED UP. You stiffed them so you didn't get your check. Thyey asked you again and again to finish the job. You didn't. Once you DO, your check will be released. Funny, they paid you over $100,000 to take photos for them and you treat and trash them this way. I have some great forwarded emails I could copy and paste on here to show everyone how you were "stiffed"- woops I mean wouldn't finish your JOB. This is unreal. Would you like me to post?
"$41 million was paid to the executives"- that's untrue. It was paid to BARCLAYS BANK when they reneged on their Orlsndo deal. What "executive interviews" are you recalling? Cay Clubs isn't a CORPORATION so there are no CORPORATE RECORDS; but good to hear the uneducated guesses and rumors. It is a private company run by individuals. People bought condos and guess what they got? Poof-it's-gone-stock? NO!!! They got CONDOs!!!! If they can't afford it, they can sell or go on one of the hundreds of do-it-yourself vacation rental companies like vacationrentalbyowner.com or any local full-service company and rent it out. There's a huge market for holiday or vacation rentals- look around on the web. They'll get their lease back- but it was optional and out of over 1,500 units sold (and given it was optional), 140 people having to wait is unfortunate but not criminal. There's many things in the works to help CC get through the issues.
Barry Fitgerald, I worked in the office you're talking about that "stiffed you"- that's a lie! You stiffed THEM, as I very well recall. You never showed up the FRIDAY you were supposed to come down to photograph 3 homes for the real estate office in Islamorada- you didn't call or show up- and you have the audacity to point fingers- they paid you so well- what $10,000 per month??? And you find out the gravy train is ending and that you're being paid on a case by case basis and you scream what crooks they are? You're a petty fool. I saw all the emails between you and them- it's a small office. You jerked them around not the other way around. Then you told them to KEEP their check-that you were not taking the photos... see the email!!! Pot calling the kettle black crap. Grow up.
This entire thing has hurt me financially big time....but you know what? I would much rather be in my shoes than those of some of the CC execs, because what comes around goes around. I firmly believe they will get what they deserve :)
Cay Clubs is a good company with a great leader. I'm sorry they are facing hard times and even sorrier that there are people out there who are so negative and pessimistic. Hopefully, they will rebound and become leaner, meaner and stronger so we can continue to keep a large organization feeding the Keys great amounts of financial benefits: non-profit and charity contributions, tax income, employment and employee housing. Without them, who can we turn to for the amounts they have given? There will always be individuals out there ready to throw tomatoes at whomever raises their head to do something positive- too bad for everyone for that. But at least there are people willing to risk that for the big picture. Good luck, Cay Clubs and Mr. Clark. Don't worry about the bloggers- there's one blogger on another site who seems to know so much, but for some reason keeps calling you Dave Rego :) and sticking his foot in his mouth. Let him. You will learn and grow and shake it off. I know you- you are actually one of the best human beings I know. Some may think that's your weakness; I see it as your strength. You are a great business man, family man, and friend. You are also a great philanthropist given the amounts donated to the community as a whole, and individuals in particular, who needed your support. You're always ready to lend a helping hand, without judgement, resentment, or expectation. I'm sorry to see this happening to you and I pray for you, your family, your company, and your investors- that you'll get through this and enable everyone you have done business with to benefit from your vision and tenacity.
Hopefully what goes around will come back around- then Mr. Clark will have generosity, kindness and opportunities pouring in (soon!). Everyone will go through ups and downs; this is no different.
Barry Fitgerald, you don't even live in the Keys- you live in Fort Lauderdale. You stated "the Florida Keys are populated by a close-knit community, where what goes around not only comes around...it does so quickly and with a vengeance. These clowns need to be very careful upon whom they dump!"...But you don't live in the Keys? Also, you never finished your services to them- they have every right to not pay you. Would you pay someone to open a can of paint- but forget to paint- refuse to paint- not show up to paint- then scream that their paintings are the best and obviously the client doesn't appreciate the artistic abilities of him (the painter)...the client says, yes, the painting, when complete, is great- just DO IT-PAINT!! But the guy refuses...then screams to the community that he was "stiffed"? Or do you pay them when the job is complete? You were paid for a year, whether or not there were homes to photograph...then, when things got tight, they let you know that you'd be paid on a per-order basis-but they wanted you to finish off your final month (you had 2 weeks left)...you said you would, but didn't, wouldn't- no call- no show. They asked you several times- you set a time and date- then never showed up. When asked why, you said it was raining- you'd get back to them...you didn't- then you wanted a check- they said, please, first finish the job. You said "obviously, you don't appreciate my work like everyone else in the Keys does"...they said "your work is fine, when it is done- please just do it and we'll send you your check"...now this. They shouldn't have ever paid you how you were paid- realtors always pay for their own photography- not the brokerages they work for- but they were generous until it was no longer feasible to be. Your words seem to suggest your anger toward them but it was you, not them who didn't fulfill responsibilities.
"Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true."
Amen. What you see in others is what you feel about yourself. Crooks always call everyone crooks- and trust no one. Low self-esteemers think everyone is fat, ugly, worthless, no good. They find fault quickly in everyone and everything- and are super quick to point it out. The trustworthy sadly believe everyone is trustworthy. Lazies believe everyone is lazy- sinners believe everyone's going to hell...etc., etc. Nice people usually think everything and everyone is great. That's just the way it is. Oh yeah, cheaters always think they're being cheated. This could be a song...sing it with me now...lalalalalalalalalalalalalal
REAL ESTATE
Walkaways increase at WCI condos
Builder WCI Communities said more buyers are walking away from its condos, though the company said it is ready to withstand what it called a `protracted downturn.'
Posted on Tue, Aug. 07, 2007Digg it del.icio.us reprint or license print email
BY MATTHEW HAGGMAN
mhaggman@MiamiHerald.com
WCI Communities said 17 percent of its condominium buyers have walked away rather than close on new units this year, the latest indication of trouble in the condo market.
That's higher than the 8 percent to 10 percent rate WCI predicted at the beginning of the year.
With a record number of condo towers under construction and the housing market slumping, market watchers are keeping a close eye on how many buyers actually close on units they contracted to purchase. More cancellations mean more condos on the market, and more downward pressure on prices.
Also a builder of single-family homes, WCI is one of the few publicly-traded high-rise developers in Florida, so its reports are a rare view into an industry dominated by privately-held firms. The vast majority of the Bonita Springs developer's projects are in Florida, from Miami Beach to Perdido Key.
WCI, which reports second-quarter earnings Aug. 16, told investors Monday it expected the number of buyers backing out of contracts to decrease to about 12 percent through the end of the year because the mix of towers scheduled to close are better located and have a higher percentage of presold units.
CASH FLOW
The company said One Bal Harbour, a high-rise in the affluent Miami-Dade County beachfront town, would account for the majority of cash flow the rest of the year.
Jerry Starkey, WCI's chief executive, said the company has available cash and credit to withstand what he called ''continued weakness'' in the housing market.
WCI also said the company is not in default of any credit agreements. Still, the builder said it's renegotiating terms with lenders to ``provide broader latitude to operate during the protracted downturn.''
WCI has struggled to find its footing since the housing downturn commenced. Last year it reported revenue of $2.05 billion but a profit of just $9 million. By comparison, in 2005 WCI earned $186.2 million on $2.6 billion in revenue.
STOCK TROUBLES
Its stock price has tumbled from $24 a year ago to $6.64 at Monday's close. Company officials spurned an offer from billionaire investor Carl Icahn to buy the company, which included a plan to replace management.
After announcing in February the company was up for sale, company leaders said two weeks ago it couldn't find a buyer.
On Monday WCI said it continues ''to explore alternatives to increase shareholder value.'' But it cautioned there are no guarantees any deal will be completed.
Some observers predict things will get worse before they get better.
''Buildings yet to close from now through the middle of 2009 will see progressively higher walkaways because they were contracted later in the boom cycle when prices were at the highest point,'' said Deerfield Beach real estate analyst Jack McCabe, who has long argued that too many condos were built.
Hmmm....interesting...verrryyy interesting. Stock anyone? Six bucks a pop. Getcher fresh stocks- buy one, get one free..blue light special on stocks. Are there any lawsuits? :)I mean, people lost money, right? Innocent,trusting investors; sweet, sweet, lovely investors losing...what, 3/4ths of their investment monies buying WCI Developers stock...Holy guacamole, batman...call the authorities---call the Belt Lawfirm!!! AAAArrrggghhhh!!!! Be very afraid. Someone needs to be sued. Or go to jail...or SOMETHING...where's all my favorite critics hiding? Where's the comments...opinions...TRUTH seekers? JUSTICE agents...Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? We need to CRUCIFY... WCI!!!!! HURRY!!!! BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE GETS RIPPED OFF!!! SAVE THEM, CAYO DAVE...SAVE THE WCI INVESTORS!!!!AND THE WCI HOMETOWN VICTIMS OF THEIR CROOKED WAYS!!!!THEY"RE TRYING TO SELL THEIR COMPANY NOW!!! PEOPLE WILL DIE OF WALLET BULIMIA...I MEAN ANOREXIA!!!I MEAN REALITY!!!!!!!!! PLEEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSEEEEEEEE!!!!!! Kerplunk. Whew, ran out of air there, for a minute. OK...I'm fine. Really. Just very nervous.
For Barry Fitzgerald -- out of curiosity who OWNS the rights too photos you took? It is my understanding that all photographic work is automatically copyrighted -- it is optional if you decide to have the works copyrighted via gov forms -- at least that's what the Library of Congress says. Unless, you offered/signed an agreement with an organization that enabled extended licenses rights; it would seem to me you should be pursuing legal council, either to retain your works as your own or receive payment for such works.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the RE market has tanked. There would be very little issue if people could sell their units for at least what they paid for them and get out with little loss. Everyone knows economies change so for the hotel etc... to not come to fruition was a known possibility going in.
The supposed 20% instant equity being sold by the sales agent was untrue even in an up market. This was supposedly prior to any additions or upgrades. Yet I'm sure he still continues to sell that line today with values down. Units seem to have a hard time appraising for what they are being purchased for let alone 20% above price.
If the investment was sold at face value there would be very few issues with people. It is buying a unit in its current state based on future value with renovations and expansions that may or may not take place. But of course there would be much fewer units sold since this is much riskier than "guaranteed instant equity" etc...which is probably why the agent went this route instead.
Investors only see things from the outside which is why Mr. Clark is catching such flak. He himself is a fine man but to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to what was being sold out there is where the mistake was made. Cay Clubs grew too fast and then were trying to play catch up instead of remaining small and delivering on the first projects, to make sure the business model worked. If it did there would be many happy investors and a track record would be established. If it didn't work then you revise it accordingly. Even though there is plenty of past development experience with the owners there is no track record with Cay Clubs and their model. It's like the people that are in sales and have a good year, they load up on debt and purchases based on that income. The following year if they don't make that money they are in trouble. You need a set budget to live within until you know there is continuance of income at which time you can take on more debt.
This type of investment drew the people that couldn't really afford it. Whether it was greed, stupidity or both, many investors I'm sure shouldn't have purchased based on speculation.
To the previous anonymous commenter: You hit the nail on the head - I agree with your excellent comment.
How can Mr. Clark keep track of everyone selling those condos? There are several people out there that he doesn't even know- never met (or heard of, in several cases) who are selling Cay Clubs properties. I would have to say more than 300 different realtors sell CC product (guesstimate- probably much more). Anyone can sell his condos- anyone can sell any real estate. That is, anyone with a realtor's license or knows someone with one. Should he have contacted everyone out there to tell them to conduct themselves in a manner that would reflect his expectations? That would be a great thing, if it was feasible.
His company held several sales meetings (quarterly, usually-per Barry Graham) and they told about the properties and the amenities, prices, costs of social memberships, great features to point out as well as what to make sure "not to say" to ensure no misrepresentation issues come up, furniture packages available, etc. But is he legally responsible for people outside of his payroll (commission-only paid agents) for who, how, what, when they sell?
There was a very large block buyer who came in and was about to purchase 75+ units. Dave asked to see the contracts and noticed that there was something awry with the verbiage contained in them...that something looked wrong (a lot of the people in the block buying group seemed to be over 65 years old, some on fixed incomes). He stopped the sale altogether- losing the ability to make millions (and get the company out of the tight situation it faces)- because he thought it might not be a good thing, overall. The buyers even begged to write notarized letters to prove they were financially able...he declined.
So, I believe he does do what he can to to make sure things are right. Did they buy a lot fast? Yes. You're correct- but there was a time in RE when things were extremely great and every company uses a certain amount of proceeds to grow (and sometimes diversify) as well as donate.
CC's vision is not to build ground-up projects from scratch as, especially in the Keys, that is virtually impossible (builing moratorium established in 1986, etc..). He knew he could only re-develop/convert in the Keys so he took that model elsewhere (Clearwater, Las Vegas, Sarasota, etc.). Do you not see the potential in that? With 2 years of tough economic conditions, overall: hurricane poundings (insurance hikes, etc.), mortgage crunches, and the rest; of COURSE they are going to stumble, restructure, learn, and grow...or fall. But Clark has made every possible effort to keep from falling and he will continue working his ass off to realize his mission and dream: success for everyone involved: employees, community members, organizations and investors; his family, reputation, dreams and ideals.
To compare him to a crook is not only unfair, it is altogether incorrect. If you knew him, you'd probably agree (although there will always be the critics, of course). It's tough not to see his potential and leadership abilities. Most business books would describe him as a "level 5 leader". He's just that way- so different from what you may assume of a "developer".
There are 140 buyers out of over 1,500 that are waiting for the rest (or all of) their rental checks. That is true. His mission (without question) is to fulfill his obligations and promises to them. Most likely, he will accomplish his mission and fulfill his agreements (although optional- I might add). Then, we will have much less to blog about. Of course there will be blogs like this, now-with this situation at hand. But remember, when you go to throw your proverbial stones; you are throwing them at your own glass house. This situation, although unfortunate, is exactly that: a situation. And the situation is being worked on morning, noon, and night. People did not lose any money. Unless they lied to their mortgage brokers and sales agents and got in over their heads in the first place. They do own something, which no "market" point fluctuation, creative corporate accountant, or insider-trading scam artist can dismantle. Only thier own ability to pay off a mortgage that they, personally, promised a lender they could repay (not on the basis of a rental agreement; on the basis of their income/debt ratio, wealth accumulation and credit history).
That is the truth. Pray Cay Clubs makes it through this situation. Then we as a community, will be able to high five them and see our neighbors continue to receive great health benefits, pay, opportunities, and the like. We'll see more tourists having a place to stay and spend their money (at all our businesses), our charity organizations receiving more financial help to fulfill their missions, our overall tax income (for our schools, roads, police force, etc.) greatly increased. Or not. By hoping for their demise, you are hoping for the demise of something potentially much greater than you assume, without looking at the overall big picture. Think about that and please keep them in your prayers. I'll keep you and them in mine. It's great to see all this passion and tenacity. God love America and free speech.
Please show me any property that someone bought in the last two years anywhere, where it is worth as much, or more, than what was paid for it. All over, there are properties that people bought (houses and condos) that are selling for less than they were bought for 2 years ago. It's everywhere. If Cay Clubs condos didn't increase in value- does that constitute fraud/ illegal sales? Doubtful, unless the investors themselves got into something fishy with their lenders. But is it illegal to not increase in value in a bear market? I don't believe so.
Barry Fitgerald was paid. Lots, actually. I know a particular blogger (who posted the "legal Barry Fitzgerald" post) knows a lot about photography, obviously- as you were married to a photographer. Lawsuit? For pictures paid for? We have lots of receipts. I love a good challenge. Speaking of challenges, I challenge you to make the company you're starting as much as you made us :) (-negative-$250,000...in one year- not one profitable month, week, day)...see the red hues...ouch... in one year; due to no budgets (not ONE), no financial reports (until forced), no boundaries, absentee-management (so much to do in KW- like meet with your new partner on our expense- and party- so we're told by your pals); over-staffing, ridiculous expense account, no understanding or knowledge of the very computer program that enabled the company to budge. Then you'll see real lawsuits. Maybe we should call the lawyers. I would bet anything your tactics would be seen in a negative light. You're the reason we had to shift paying Barry F. from monthly to case-by-case. But I'm sure you're now working with him...I love the legal advice, though. Thanks! Good luck...and...Stay in the Keys! :)
I am an investor in the Las Vegas Cay Club, who is now in the position of not being able to sell or rent because the project in not completed. I now know that there were lies told all a long the way to get people into this investment. The people that were hired to work on this project were unethical and the company has not performed. The project was to have a tram, along with many other elements that were sold to us, and then not delivered after we already had our mortgages on the property. To all of you who say we can just sell or rent, that would be true for most investments - but CC has managed to ruin people like myself, who may have to foreclose. I don't know the company like you who live in the community, but I do know they certainly have not cared what they misrepresented in this project. How can you not call these people crooks??!!
Everyone has to remember there are two different views on every issue. This is one that will never be agreed upon by investors and employees no matter how much you go back and forth. I can assure you that there was no intention of not paying investors on Cay Clubs part. That would just be silly to think it was done on purpose. Not paying 140 lease checks is certainly not worth jeopardizing a company over.
What opinion anyone may derive from the goings on with the leases is sure to be negative. Unfortunately people remember the negatives more often than positives. The first time investors not paid leases only have that negative thought so will of course form the same on their opinion. Even if the money was paid today most all would still be negative vs not. There is nothing that can be done about that and those are the people that write negative blogs.
The other issue of trams and high rises or hotels etc...a lot of people believe what they are told no matter what is said. Even if it was a lower percentage chance of everything happening they will grasp on to that and hope it happens. I can't believe anyone would think this construction would take place within two years to completion. If they were told that or formed that thought on their own it is crazy. Permitting alone can take years and construction many more. If you are buying as investment you should weigh all the risks associated with it. What if construction doesn't happen? What if values drop? What if what if...Not, oh everything is going to work perfectly and I am going to make 200k in two years...here's the check. When do I get my lease so I can make the payments for two years?
Cay Clubs seems to be still trying to rectify the issues which has to count for something. The scammers are the ones you never hear from after they take your money and change their name. Since Dave is on here himself, I can only assume he is not posting from Africa where he is enjoying the money from 140 lease checks. He is instead working to find a way to pay these people because it probably drives him crazy knowing it is owed. As for those who can't sell, did your sales rep promise the market wouldn't flatten out too?
On the flip side, if not getting a lease on time makes you foreclose or causes hardship, then it is apparent you shouldn't have bought in the first place.
So true. There are several companies trying to partner with CC now to help things through to completion. Looks like we made it :) (Shania Twain, sing it girl!!). Yeah! Now the bloggers can continue sniffing WCI's trail...or worse....EARTHMARK!!!! Did anyone know that they never paid any of the realtors (who sold ALL THEIR UNITS) their commissions when the units closed? Millions and MILLIONS of dollars were not (and from what I hear...CANNOT be paid).EarthMark POCKETED these millions. OUCH! There are several lawsuits...but nothing to fund the outcome. There are several realtors, who will be unable to make what they assumed- contractually obligated to....several even spent the "coming" monies, like most people do when they believe the check is in the mail. Now that is illegal. They purposely kept the agents out of the closings. And never paid. For hundreds of units. Call the authorities. Please!
So, since it is a free country -- http://www.state.fl.us is where you'll find the appropriate information for filing a complaint.
And let's all be clear: trying NOW to rectify this situation ---- say it with me "TOO LITTLE TOO LATE".
Where there is smoke -- there is FIRE.
Hello everyone. This is going to be the most long-winded blog post I've written yet...sorry! But knowing Dave Clark quite well (this is Cristal), I'd like to share with you a little bit about his past and present.
He was born in Catalba, South Carolina in a little rickety old trailer in 1958, to a young pulp-wood factory worker and his middle-school sweetheart wife (he was the second of three children). They were very poor and his father (after their third child was born) decided to enlist in the military to serve his country and receive the ability to go to college (GI bill). After his military service, at age 30, his father enrolled in college and proceeded to graduate with an engineering degree. He found an engineering job in Orlando and, when Dave was 9, the family moved there.
His Dad was an engineer for many years. Meanwhile, he also received his real estate brokers license and opened a few brokerages (while working full time as an engineer). His mother helped his father in the business while raising their family.
Dave worked 3 jobs, continuously through high school (UPS in the middle of the night, JC Penny after school, and lifeguard on the weekends). He bought his own first car and also, the same year, bought his first peice of real estate. His family was very involved in their local church and through high school, Dave took their church's youth ministry from 10 to over 200 high school kids. Just before graduation, Dave's Dad fell ill and almost died of a life-threatening condition. Dave saw that he would have to help his Mom with the finances so he entered college and graduated in 2 1/2 years with an accounting and business administration degree. He tripled up on classes to finish as quickly as possible, while working full time.
He married (at age 19) his first wife and has two beautiful, great daughters with her. After graduating college, he began working at Ernst and Ernst as an accountant and did that for a few years- but knew there was more that he needed to do. He began developing strip malls and restaurants while continuing with his accounting profession. Once his projects needed his full attention, he moved on from Ernst and Ernst, commiting fully to realizing his dreams of building and developing.
Having never once seen his parents fight (to this day, after almost 60 years of marriage, they're still the happiest couple you've ever met), he was somewhat unprepared for normal marriage tumultuosity. Sadly, at age 26, his first marriage ended. He sees this as his greatest failure to this day.
He continued running his business and hit some tough times in the crashing real estate industry of the early 80's. Interest rates skyrocketed to over 20% and things became increasingly bumpy. Meanwhile, he met the RDG Florida Group investment team who invited him to join them and manage their initiatives in buying bank portfolios (commercial property bank notes and foreclosures- REOs- etc.) and develop the projects to their potential. He did so, and soon after began purchasing and developing several projects throughout the state of Florida (Jacksonville, Fort Myers, Bahia Beach and Key Largo).
Along with developments and commercial peices, some of the other assets that were purchased in these portfolio deals were orange groves. Dave saw the potential to turn these groves into something better and more useful for the environment and economy as a whole: converting them to mitigation banks. Turning them back into wetlands in order to create a situation where developers and state/federal entities wanting to destroy wetlands in order to build projects, roads, etc. would have to pay for credits to restore wetlands elsewhere (mitigation credits). In turn, the proceeds went to restoring the groves back to wetlands. So, in a sense, he sold/ created swampland in Florida :)...but in a good and meaningful way. This Mitigation Banking that Dave helped pioneer (he was the largest mitigation banker in the US- with several thousand acres of restored wetlands throughout Florida) was a great success as were the multiple housing developments he continued developing.
During this time (late 80's), he married his second wife, and has two amazing and wonderful, beautiful daughters with her. They were married for 13 years before parting ways. He continued supporting his families and had custody of his children at times- always willing to be there for them.
He met me while I was working on my Real Estate license- I waited on him at a Fort Myers restaurant (Peter's La Cuisine). I had a 3 year old son and I had just moved to Florida as my Millenium resolution. I had always waited tables and sometimes tended bar, thoughout college and even after graduating to make ends meet. My parents were not wealthy and I had to pay my student loans and take care of my son as a single mom (with no support from his Canadian father- I never married).
I was very reluctant to go on a date with Dave as the more I got to know him (he would call to find out my schedule, I later found out- then made sure to show up before the dinner or late night crowds came in because, he said- he needed to talk to me), the more I figured out he was in a different league. I am nowhere near model perfect type that guys like him usually chase. But he continued pursuing me, insisting that I was the most beautiful person in the world to him. He treated my son like he was his very own...we blended lives and here we are today, almost 8 years later. Together, we share 7 children, two foster children, 2 grand children, and a cute (subjectively speaking :) English Bulldog.
As their company (RDG Fla Group) grew and diversified, they later changed their name to personify the marriage of development and mitigation banking: EarthMark Companies. Dave was the leader of this company for almost 20 years, when little by little, one of the main financial investors/partners decided his own son (without the background/field experience/business education) should take the reins- he wanted to see his boy lead the show.
This led to many sleepless nights and disagreements regarding how things should be managed and what/ whose decisions to move forward on. Regardless of the past successes, Dave knew that if things kept going the direction that the other partner pushed for, there would be certain outcomes that he was not comfortable with being involved in.
He decided to take his own path, inviting investors who'd done several business deals in the past with him to join in his quest to redevelop parcels that had great potential. They were happy to partner with him, seeing and experiencing his work ethic, drive, character, and abilities. Sunvest, JDI, Singh, and IMG (Bruenich/ Boletierri families), Schwarz family, Caglianone family/ Jimerico and more saw the partnership potential of Dave's visions and plans. They generously placed their faith in Dave- as they had seen what he was capable of producing (they had success with him in all past partnerships)and believed he would continue to produce successful results.
Cay Clubs started out unbelievably well- sales were incredible- rapid- explosive- we were in a peiod of unfathomable amounts of real estate buyers, low interest rates, no major hurricanes in 10 years, people wanting to diversify out of stocks because their money had disappeared from the tech bust, no one wanting to get on a plane due to the overwhelming changes in air travel policy, etc...
The more the company made financially, the more they purchased additional properties. Donations were allocated to every charitable cause that asked (really). And that was great- there was still enough to go around. Then little by little, the economic conditions began changing for the worse (of course- everything is cyclical). Hurricanes pounded us two years in a row, interest rates climbed, insurance rates doubled, and people stopped buying.
Even though developers, everywhere, were going under, they continued to stay alive and make a profit. But the final straw came when, after closing the Orlando Cay Clubs deal, Barclays bank reneged on the amount of money for secured funds changed overnight from $116,000 to $360,000 due to their own tight situation (and the clause that said they could, if necessary, but wouldn't- most likely ever have to). This pulled $36 million out of Cay Club's cash flow and that, in essence, created the huge hurdle we continue to try and pull ourselves over.
We are currently facing several new groups (one will be sufficient for the necessary outcome) who wish to join forces with us and help take us public. The overall funds they offer- in exchange for some ownership stake rights- will absolutely enable us to grow, complete projects, pay all the rental agreements and move forward.
As I posted before, people laughed, sneered, jeered, shook their heads and chastised him (and me and our kids) about Mariner's Club Key Largo. They said there's no way you can turn a place that looks like an Iraqi bomb shelter (between two trailer parks, at that) into anything half-way worthy of anyone spending (gasp) $475,000 for an ocean front town house (now they're selling for over a million each- 6 years later)...or that there'd ever be a pool (there's 2- one is the largest in the Keys), marina, clubhouse, tennis courts, workout room, restaurant, and 120 units (in time...10 years to be exact from start to completion- that's usual, especially in the Keys).
They're not screaming anymore. Now, they're renting out their units for thousands of dollars per week- laughing all the way to the bank. Or they sold and coined themselves "investors". Some even retired. I know- I sold many of the units there. My investors still call me to this day (Dr. Aportella, Dr. Yaffa, Dr. Dunn, Dr. Kostell, Mr. Punturo, the Priolos, the Hamways, and several others) to say hello. Not to belittle. They were the people who were able to invest, hold on, be patient, and realize their investment in the long run. That's what real estate is really about. Flippers may get lucky- but it is a gamble and a long shot- and they know it. But they will do what they set out to. The other blogger was correct in saying no one put a gun to their heads...no one but they, themselves applied for their mortgages, stating whatever they do to get loans they cannot truly afford. Due diligence is key- but realtors have no right to that due diligence- and that is a problem.
Of course, there will always be investors who stretched themselves too thin- and that is a sad situation, all the way around. But I can assure you that Dave did not twist any arms or force anyone to buy from us. He did not sell them (as a salesperson) a unit and their sales-person did not and cannot look into their clients' bank accounts to make sure they're for real.
My point is to ask you all to please have faith in Dave. He truly is a good man with great intentions. He works harder than anyone I've ever met. He's generous, loving, kind, compassionate, and visionary. His capabilities are amazing. He eats, sleeps, dreams, and lives his intentions to create great opportunities for everyone in the company and community; investors and partners; family and friends.
He has worked so hard to get to where he is and he will continue to do everything in his power to get things back to great- to enable each and every investor to be content with their condominium purchase and enable the buyers who want him to fulfill a rental agreement to do just that.
I know this is lengthy and I'm sure you're probably tired of my lengthy blogs by now, but if you knew what I did, you'd understand my messages more thoroughly. I don't know if anyone knows him as well as I do. Well, maybe his ex wives- who still admire and respect him; or even his Mom, Dad and two sisters...possibly even his daughters, Adrienne, Emily, Caysee and Brooke know him as I do (they're old enough now to have developed the ability to assesss things for how they really are- not just what people tell them to believe). His essence is true and real. He's unpretentious, honorable, straightforward and as kind as they come. And he's the smartest and most respectful man I could ever imagine.
Please give him the chance to fix this lease-back issue. If he fails, which I 100% believe he will not; then be my guest to say all the horrible things you can think of about his business ability and skill. He's a hard working man who is trying, with all his might, to continue creating and completing the projects he's begun. And you will see the dreams realized. Please think of these things when you post things about him. That's all I ask. If you have any questions, please call me at (305) 522-0401. Thank you.
You mean Earthmark never paid the realtors who went on to sell with Dave Clark and Cay Clubs. Oh, yeah- that would be all the realtors who sold all the EarthMark condos. I guess it was a punishment- they hated seeing all their employees jumping ship. Nonetheless, they were obligated to pay the commissions so I would advise those realtors to file complaints, although they probably have, given there's lawsuits in the works.
As a current employee of Cay Clubs i am feeling sick to my stomach to see other people talk trash about Cay Club and their operations.
Leave them alone and lets hope for better "old" days , quick recovery and even better future of the company.
Thank You
A good dose of pepto should cure that "sick to your stomach" feeling.
EarthMark just closed the Mandalay Restaurant in Key Largo- didn't even tell anyone! Gone. What's going on with them?
I think Earthmark might be kicking the bucket. Droves of developers and real estate companies are really hurting and just trying to hold their breath through this downturn.
I heard all the restaurant employees lost their jobs (EarthMark) and weren't even warned. Too bad.
I'd be interested to know if any of the "chiefs" have lost jobs? Can anyone comment?
Cay Clubs owes me $50,000.00 and i'll probably never see it...i could only imagine how much debt their in
THEY'RE is the word you're looking for (4th grade lesson :)
I would much rather be accused of poor grammar, than to be ACCUSED OF FRAUD!!! See article in Miami Herald 8/29/07.
Fraud meaning the people bought units and got title to them or fraud meaning they didn't (they did.)? Renovations were put on hold due to economic conditions (look around-it is in many places). Their leasebacks were paid and matured. Renovations are not started. But the condos rent often and therefore continue to make them $$$. That's bad timing (on everyone's part), not fraud. But the lawyers leading the lawsuits will be the only winners in that case.
OK all you investors on the attack- one thing: Have you ever thought of asking your trustworthy lawyers this: How much do YOU (Mr.Attorney)stand to make off this lawsuit whether or not it pans out...then ask yourselves: How much do I stand to realistically MAKE and LOSE by doing this? Weigh the opportunities and costs very very carefully. Lawyers love to find a bunch of disgruntled people to bank on. But is there a bank in it for you- or just them? Think about it. You are publicly slamming the very investment you hope, one day to make money on. Right? Huh? Do you truly (I mean truly) think that your efforts will lead to this amazingly strong company (it's struggling as are most in this arena) to cough up money to you for buying something and getting title to it? Can they even survive after your attacks and potential freeze in sales due to your mud-slinging? Then what? Have you ever played chess? Do you not notice the vultures (attorneys)- if they truly had a case that would win you anything- will you really win? Really? Or are they trying to bank on the real estate freeze by zeroing in on people screaming that they were "scammed"? Good luck to you in your pursuits. Most likely, you'll find out how the world turns and figure out that in time, your places would have been complete- this is a terrible market catastrophe and sometimes things take longer in that situation. You have every right to be pissed about the hold-up on the project. But the shark feeding frenzy is there and some wish to swim (are inticed by the invitation to vent, place blame) in the school- but if you're not really a shark- they usually tear you to shreds. Self righteousness can sometimes lead to self destruction. Especially when lawyers get involved. This is your investment. Think about it. You are burning it down. This is also my investment you've lit your match to. I'm just trying to hold the extinguisher up and hope the spray lasts as long as necessary.
Posted by: Jaws Hater
8/31/2007 12:01 AM
please see www.cayclubsblog.blogspot.com for more cay clubs stories...
Seems that Cay Clubs has been facing some serious challenges lately. The economy has soured, buyers have hibernated, insurance rates have skyrocketed, times have changed and the reality is most if not all developers have faced either going out of business or watching their stock prices plummet. They're all struggling, to say the least.
Two short years ago, the arena was very different. You could find a delapidated single-wide trailer on a narrow canal for $600,000 +. Not today. Due to the changes which began about a year ago (following the two years-in-a-row-hurricane poundings throughout Florida and S.E. USA) developments/renovations at some Cay Clubs properties were put on hold, while they continued marketing and renting the condominiums out to vacationers- continuing to bring income to their buyers.
Some buyers opted for a rental management arrangement where Cay Clubs would lease back the specified units from the buyers at a certain one-sum lump in exchange for the ability to rent the units out by the company, themselves- thus bringing the developer the funds instead of the buyer. Some of these buyers were unable to receive the optional rental management arrangement due to the pervading snowball-effect of the economic conditions that were becoming problematic company as well as country-wide.
Each and every buyer received a deeded property (already built- with plans to amenitize the property by renovating and adding value-enhancing amenities). Each and every property is there; rentable, sell-able, use-able. Most are on the water, many have marinas. A handful of investors are upset, understandably, because the renovations have yet to materialize. They believed things would be complete within a year or so. They are not.
Now Cay Clubs faces bad press to compound their difficulties. Hopefully, they will pull through this difficult time- enabling each condominium purchaser the ability to realize their units' full potential values. I am a buyer of several of these units. Now my investments are at risk. More-so by the bad press and the vulture legal threats. But these threats, I fear, will only further my in-ability do make the most on my dollars, which I used to purchase these condominiums.
There are several blogs out there, but it seems whenever someone posts things that shed truth or point out the things that are erroneous, the blogs get buried in piles of other news- the blog-masters hoping that people will only remember their mud-slinging attacks and the bad image they wish to portray. Well, I figured I'd start my own blog, which can never be buried. I'm trying to protect my purchase. I'm trying to protect the company that will or will not continue to have the power to make certain I receive what I paid for.
True, I have my condos; they're renting out, I sometimes visit them, check up on them and cash my rental checks, although I wish I was making more. Hopefully, that day will come. I want all the amenities and renovations that were planned for to finalize. The only way this will happen is if I try and do my share of lifting Cay Clubs up (although there will always be those trying to tear them down). Please help me help them. I believe that if they fail as a company, a lot of things, including our condos' market values, will only decline.
No matter if the legal eagles win whatever they're trying to accomplish; the truth is , they will inevitably lose. Maybe they (the angry investors trying to attack) utilized some type of creative financing arrangements and used "stated income" tactics, or other ways that enable people who can't really afford to buy vacation properties the ability to do so. Maybe their mortgage ARM rates ballooned, matured, changed, or became too much for them to handle (I think everyone is hurting lately). Maybe they counted on their rent or lease-back options to pan out and that was the only way they could pay their mortgages. Who knows. But the truth is, they sought their mortgages, secured them with whomever they chose, and had the full responsibility of telling their mortgage brokers/bankers the truth about their expectations, limitations and financial realities. But they want to be investors. Understandable.
The professionals like myself who have the funds available to hold us over through the down-cycle (as there always are) fully expect the market to re-correct itself in a beneficial way. We are the ones not suing; as we know that if we do, there is no good that can come out of it. If Cay Clubs doesn't make it, neither does our investment potential. I don't believe a struggling company that cannot currently honor the optional rental proposal will have the funds to reimburse anyone for whatever they're hoping to be reimbursed for (lawsuit awards). The condos we bought are not "pre-construction" contracts. They are fully present, closed on, given-title-to-condominiums or townhouses - there is a very big distinction in the legal arena regarding both types of situations.
Many lawyers have intelligently positioned themselves to bank on the exasperated buyers' inabilities to hold on through the down-turn in the economy. It is similar to ice cream trucks circling the neighborhoods when summer-time comes. They probably stand to profit more than the investors can. I understand everyone's position on the matter and I respect everyone's opinions and concerns. But again, my hope is to bring to light the comments which have supported the other side of the story. So I have gathered comments/posts from other blogs and I will little by little, display them where they cannot be buried.
www.secinfo.com/d12TC3.uK1p.htm
SEC - Public information.
nothing new-likely will not happen imo.
Anglers feel burned
By Kevin Wadlow Senior Staff Writer kwadlow@keynoter.com
Posted-Tuesday, September 11, 2007
Big-money series goes belly-up, developer blamed
The Billfish Xtreme Release League may be gone but team owners in the Cay Clubs-affiliated sports venture have not forgotten.
“I'm not going to walk away from this,” said Rob Ruwitch, owner of the Sharky's Revenge team. “I've talked to other team owners, and I don't think they're going to walk away, either.”
In 2006, series founder Norm Isaacs sold the BXRL to Cristal Clear Productions, headed by Cay Clubs founder Dave Clark.
Clark said he intended to raise the league's image by attracting national sponsors. The televised tournaments also would promote Cay Clubs properties.
The BXRL opened its seventh season with a March 30-April 1 tournament in Marathon, scheduled to be the first of six events throughout the Caribbean. A late-April tournament in Bimini followed.
All four remaining tournaments on the tour were cancelled.
“That's it, fishing time is over,” Ruwitch said this week. “The season never happened because Dave Clark and Cay Clubs balked.”
Six fishing teams, including one sponsored by Cay Clubs, started the 2007 series after paying entry fees of $225,000 each.
Last week, Cay Clubs handed back management control of three Marathon resorts to developer Pritam Singh, who built them.
Also last week, Cay Clubs suddenly closed three of its Keys restaurants, laying off an unknown number of workers. That followed the reported laying off of some 80 to 100 staffers in May.
According to the Miami Herald, Cay Clubs warned in regulatory filings it may be forced into bankruptcy if it can't refinance more than $74 million in loans coming due this fall.
It owes more than $10 million in late lease payments to condo buyers and missed $1 million in loan payments this year, regulatory filings say.
All entrants in the BXRL were filmed by professional television crews aboard their boats while fishing during competition. Highlights of each event became an outdoors programming staple on the ESPN 2 sports channel.
“To me, this is a very simple deal,” Ruwitch said. “We paid for them to put on an event. They didn't do it. Now we want our money back.”
Over the last four months, team owners tried to negotiate a settlement, he said. At first, league officials vowed to reschedule the cancelled events.
Eventually, Ruwitch said, owners were told the BXRL “does not currently have the resources” to fund the tournaments' expensive production costs and prize purse.
“I was told Dave Clark, the managing partner of the BXRL, had ‘bigger issues' with his primary business, Cay Clubs,” Ruwitch wrote in an account of the league collapse. “...The BXRL was supposed to have been a standalone entity with its own cash and cash flow. Well, I was advised Mr. Clark had co-mingled our (the team owners') entry fees with his own Cay Clubs monies. Like magic, all our money was gone and this exciting international tournament series was dead.”
Ruwitch said team owners “offered [the company] an out,” agreeing to take over control if they were repaid a pro-rated share of entry fees.
“We offered to go away, and could have been the biggest supporters of their attempts to right the Cay Clubs ship,” Ruwitch said. “Instead, they ignored us.”
Clark later offered a settlement that involved stock shares in Cay Clubs' planned merger with a publicly traded holding company, with repayment several years away.
“It's like he wasn't even listening to our conversation,” Ruwitch said. “It was a ridiculous proposal, a slap in the face.”
Ruwitch said he spoke and wrote to Clark and BXRL officials in blunt language. “Now I'm on the to-be-ignored list.”
BXRL officials did not return Keynoter calls for comment.
All the operations staff who planned and staged the tournaments have been let go or resigned, he said.
Cay Clubs Blog said...
Anonymous said...
Everyone has to remember there are two different views on every issue. This is one that will never be agreed upon by investors and employees no matter how much you go back and forth. I can assure you that there was no intention of not paying investors on Cay Clubs part. That would just be silly to think it was done on purpose. Not paying 140 lease checks is certainly not worth jeopardizing a company over.
What opinion anyone may derive from the goings on with the leases is sure to be negative. Unfortunately people remember the negatives more often than positives. The first time investors not paid leases only have that negative thought so will of course form the same on their opinion. Even if the money was paid today most all would still be negative vs not. There is nothing that can be done about that and those are the people that write negative blogs.
The other issue of trams and high rises or hotels etc...a lot of people believe what they are told no matter what is said. Even if it was a lower percentage chance of everything happening they will grasp on to that and hope it happens. I can't believe anyone would think this construction would take place within two years to completion. If they were told that or formed that thought on their own it is crazy. Permitting alone can take years and construction many more. If you are buying as investment you should weigh all the risks associated with it. What if construction doesn't happen? What if values drop? What if what if...Not, oh everything is going to work perfectly and I am going to make 200k in two years...here's the check. When do I get my lease so I can make the payments for two years?
Cay Clubs seems to be still trying to rectify the issues which has to count for something. The scammers are the ones you never hear from after they take your money and change their name. Since Dave is on here himself, I can only assume he is not posting from Africa where he is enjoying the money from 140 lease checks. He is instead working to find a way to pay these people because it probably drives him crazy knowing it is owed. As for those who can't sell, did your sales rep promise the market wouldn't flatten out too?
On the flip side, if not getting a lease on time makes you foreclose or causes hardship, then it is apparent you shouldn't have bought in the first place.
Cay Clubs Blog said...
Next, we read why litigants are claiming Cay Clubs took their money and invested it improperly:
The Sombrero owners allege the sales tactic amounts to a security or an investment, a type of transaction which must be registered with the state Department of Banking and Finance. According to the suit, salesmen Ricky Stokes and Barry Graham are accused of using fraudulent sales and investing tactics.
Hold on. I don't get that.
Selling condos as an investment is strictly a Real Estate proposition in my mind.
Are you telling me time shares are registered by the Department of Banking and Finance too?
So why is Cay Clubs supposed to be in the wrong selling condos as "an investment" in Real Estate?
I don't understand how "owners" can be howling about Cay Clubs "investing" their money. I must be missing something here.
To me, this sounds like more speculators wanting a bailout because they didn't do their due diligence before they purchased.
Real Estate, like stocks, like cattle futures, like betting on a Heat/Lakers game, is no slam dunk.
Where are the adults?
Cay Clubs is a corporation which has to use any revenue it can scrounge to stay solvent.
Salaries must be paid.
Leaseback stop-gap payments are being paid. (At least Cay Clubs is making that attempt as we read in the Miami Herald story.)
Everything we read in the Miami Herald and Key West Citizen (and now Keynoter) paints a picture of a company which is on the ropes because inventory is exploding, prices are dropping and most importantly the credit crunch has dried up the liquidity builders and developers need to tide them over.
Sombrero Cay Clubs is neither the first or last condotel project to run into the Housing Crash. Just last year, Islamorada's Holiday Isle's major renovation into a condotel project was canceled by new owners just a few weeks after it was announced.
I know these owners of Sombrero Beach condos want to seek redress of their problems, and I would to. But I also have to point out to these owners the following: they could possibly force the company out of business if they win a lawsuit and force a sale of Cay Clubs assets.
We've seen this before in NYSE and NASDAQ listed companies, big and small, where shareholder lawsuits seeking redress for share value loss simply helped to speed up the bankruptcy of a company which might have fought its way out from behind the 8 Ball had shareholders been more patient.
I once asked a bankrupted shareholder who partook in a fruitless shareholder suit, "What did you expect to do? Squeeze blood from a steamrolled turnip?" He gave me crap for being so cold. I shoved it back in his face and said, "You know, you can't get even 1% of Zero. One-percent of something is better than nothing.
You know who makes out the best in shareholder lawsuits? Lawyers. Then the vultures who descend on the carcass of a bankrupted company or near bankrupted company.
I learned this lesson the hard way staying invested in Sirius Satellite Radio stock way back in 2001. The company almost went bankrupt. Meaning my holdings would be worthless. However, Lehman brothers did a debt for equity swap, Lehman suddenly became 93% owner of Sirius, and I and all the other shareholders were left holding 7% of the company with our newly devalued shares.
Trust me. The $700 I had left over was better than nothing.
So was the education I received at the hands of unstoppable market forces.
Thank you, RockTrueblood.
August 31, 2007 10:08 PM
Cay Clubs Blog said...
Sombrero Beach Owners Should Chill, then Meet with Cay Clubs Execs
All I'm suggesting here is this: Sombrero Beach owners of condos might want to sit down with company officials without going to court and see if they can work things out. Because if Cay Clubs goes bankrupt, what good does it do for these owners who won't ever see any renovations of their rooms, who will have to wait for a vulture to buy the empty units in their building for pennies on the dollar, and so on and so forth?
You think this looks complicated now? Go ahead, help bankrupt the Sombrero with a lawsuit and see how fast the bankruptcy lawyers and judge get to the true remaining value of assets left to liquidate. This will take years.
I mean, yeah, maybe a judge will make Sombrero owners first in line for liquidated assets, but then again, being first in line might mean a few pennies on the dollar. But that's probably even wishful thinking as it is usually bigger lenders such as banks, bondholders, preferred shareholders, etc., who are always paid back first after a bankruptcy . . . it there's anything left over to payback.
If owners of these condos are pissed about low values now, wait until the words "bankrupt" are attached to their building. Condo values will fall 50% or more.
So, were I a Sombrero Beach condo owner, I'd think long and hard about this lawsuit.
I'd advise them to sit all 19 of the plaintiffs and company execs in a big room and then have a civil give and take and see where they can get from there.
That would be my first choice.
Think of it as a divorce. The best divorce happens when both sides don't contest the divorce, they simply have an amicable workout of who gets what, knowing that a long drawn out divorce proceeding doesn't allow either party to get on with their lives while divorce lawyers keep hitting them with growing bills.
Hell, maybe you can think of it as marriage counseling too. Maybe the owners of the condos and Cay Clubs can work out some kind of agreement where renovations start as long as the company can meet certain metrics, such as payments to leaseback operators.
Who knows? Maybe the company execs can have members of the other company attempting to merge with them sit in on a meeting and explain to condo owners, "Look, the reason this merger is so important is we will be supplying much needed capital to Cay Clubs in return for a big hunk of ownership. If you guys will call off the lawsuits and give us til the end of the year to ram this merger through, we promise to start an impressive renovation on your units on such and such a date."
I'd call this a win/win/win situation.
yawn
please look up the definition of "ponsey scheme"
I'm glad I don't live in the Keys. You people are hurting your own residents down there. You are destroying yourselves with your negative publicity. Real estate is down everywhere. It will pick up again. It will pick up faster with positive media and all will benefit. You should be careful calling names that are not true. It will come back to you. What goes around comes around. Your name may be next!
These Cay clubs bad practices started long before the market turned.
DON'T COUNT YOUR EGGS BEFORE THEY HATCH.
How many adults here know that rule? Obviously the kids at Cay Clubs - DON'T. Shame on us for not paying more attention early on.
We're causing more trouble by giving them bad press? If anyone entertains the idea that this is limited to the Keys -- wake up! We're in one huge nightmare.
Someone needs to say something -- it might as well be the residents (local business owners, etc), that are being DIRECTLY affected
We tell the truth. Ponsey Scheme is right!
BY THE WAY, WE'RE GLAD YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE KEYS EITHER.
I heard Cay Clubs had another big round of layoffs last week.
Two rounds of layoffs within 4 months? It doesn't take a financial guru to figure out this company is in very serious trouble.
This is what happends when you put your money into a company that had all its eggs in the real estate basket. Did you think the real estate market would be on the up forever? This company had no capital and no plan in place to survive this downturn.
Sounds like the greedy just screwed the greedy.
You obviously don't know this company as well as you assume or you would know they are involved in much more than real estate- but Real estate was their main thing. Everyone involved in Real Estate is in trouble right now- wake up and read the papers. WCI laid off 75% of its employees. So dod Centex, TollBrothers, etc., etc. read the entire blog and refresh your mind with facts- not just opinions.
Pulse.....NO.....CLEAR...PADDLES!!!
hope not but see nothing to suggest otherwise-just another carrot dangling in the wind as per the last 18 months. I'll keep paying, I guess, or take up kayaking.
Does anyone have a replay of the stokes presentation. The link in the coments doesn't seem to be valid anymore.
Did Stokes clean out the corporate furniture in Clearwater?
It's confirmed, the merger between Key Hospitality and Cay Clubs has been terminated. Supposedly Dave Clark is still trying to save this company but nobody out there wants any part of it. Is anybody else on here an owner in either Vegas or Orlando for Cay Clubs ?
How do you know its confirmed about the merger not happening?
How do you know its confirmed about the merger not happening?
According to a filing with the SEC dated October 2, 2007, the merger has been terminated.
Cay Clubs owners and lenders have
a much bigger problem then the "leaseback" program.
Please let me rephrase my last comment. The condo owners and lenders have a much bigger problem
then the "leaseback program" with the Cay Clubs.
To Dave Clark
How do you sleep at night?
On 8/3 at 1:56 PM you wrote "The first thing the company did was sell the planes when the downturn occurred. We did that months ago in addition to cutting out all expenditures on anything not absolutely necessary to keep our core operations going." If you sold the planes, why do you still have at least one pilot on your payroll? And why hasn't the 83' house boat been sold? I don't see its use in keeping your core operations going.
Then on 8/4 at 10:54 AM you wrote "The good news is that we own the commercial land, have demolished the old shopping center, the two abandoned gas stations have been torn down and new facilities are under construction there, we have taken over operation of the golf course and we are positioned well to move forward when it is financially viable to do so." You don't have anything to do with the new facilities under construction. They are outside of the Clearwater Cay Club Development District. Do you ever speak the truth? You turned out to be the worst neighbor I ever had.
It is over the big lender is bust American Mortgage. The owners who had 10 to 12 Townhomes at Mariners are all going bankrupt. The key are about to become affordable for the next 10 years. Jump with your shoe you already lost your shirt. Prices were inflated by at least three times. Good luck!!!
FYI - The Corporate Office in Clearwater will be officially closing on October 19th.
Just in case you wanted to know...
It doesn't really matter there is only 6 people left up here anyways.
Dave once told me that if this(CC INTL) goes down he will be the last one holding the mast. As I hear/know what went on the last few years from former employees and current investors(bagholders), Dave may rethink that philosophy unless he's a great swimmer. BS is not floating at this point! Do the right thing and tell how the appraisals and property values were manipulated. Many lives have been devastated due to your(blame it b.graham/stokes/zartman,et al, greedy unethical idiots all)gross incompetence! The great and wise D. Clark is neither! TO YOUR JOURNEY-TO MY JOURNEY!(see Dances with Wolves) BOHICA
If you were a buyer in the Clearwater deal, you'll be receiving a call from us.
We are working on behalf of
the borrowers and the lenders.
Dave Clark is brillant and creative. I am sure many investors are in the wings just waiting to buy his beautiful properties. He is kind and generous to a fault. Cay Clubs will rise again. Those who are supportive will be glad.
Is the company going bankrupt?
I wonder, is Mr. Clark brillant and creative enough to keep himself out of jail? Hmmm.
The owners of the Grand Venezia
in Clearwater, if you are not receiving your rental checks you have the right to cancel your agreement by simply writing a letter stating that you would like
to cancel your agreement. Once you do that, you will be able to collect the rent yourself.
Sunvest Communities came in and took over several properties today, Sarasota, Orlando, Sombrero and several marinas in the keys. That leaves Cay Clubs with Vegas, Bayside, and Clearwater. They have to be out of there office in Clearwater since that has also been taken over. They didn’t even pay the employee’s at the properties above that our do to get paid tomorrow. So what’s left name change and bankrupt, it’s not the first time this has happen to MR. CLARK! Also Gary Schwarz resigns his position today and I think David Schwarz is not far behind. Also for the record Cay Clubs is not apart of IMG anymore. IMG dropped that name quick they want nothing to do with Mr. Clark and his future plans! I mean big plans Mr. Clark still has money to buy A&B Marina in Key West. Can't pay owners, empoloyee's or the property bills but we can countiune to buy more property.
Where is Barry Graham? He and his wife refinanced some of their units in Las Vegas, pulled lots of cash out and have not made any payments. Have they skipped the country with the loot?
Cay Clubs just sold their Orlando and Sarasota properties.
Looks like the company is trying to sell off its assets. Bankruptcy protection is probably coming next...
If you think Dave Clark is brillant
and creative, you must be his mother, Cristal or his mistress.
To the person that said we'll be receiving a call from you as you are working on behalf of the borrowers/lenders...can you tell us who you are?
We prefer not to disclose who we are on this blog. We will be sending a letter to each Clearwater
owner. Please watch your mail. The envelope will have two labels on it, one with your address and one with ours. We will be speaking
to you soon. All of our contact information will be in the letter.
The letters will start going out on
Monday.
Over 150 employee's of Cay Clubs did not get paid this past week. But guess what. Dave Clark is still buying stuff. He has a new investor Sarasota attorney David Band. I guess he doesn't know Dave very well.
Sounds like the gravy train is just about at its last stop. Next will come the onslaught of lawsuits that will force bankruptcy and then the name change to start the company over.
In the next article in whichever paper I'm sure the spokesperson will say they wanted to move out of the headquarters and the takeovers were planned to free up cash!? HeHe.
LOL @ Anonymous 10/19/2007 4:17 PM
im so glad your all to busy bloging, i know dave is trying to figure it out so everybody WINS! use your time to support him and you will see he will make the wrongs right!!!!!!!!
He will be the one that will win the day and make wrongs right, i hope the bad and dis believers he leaves in the crapper!!!!!!!!! those he knows he will make wrongs right!!!! you go dave their is the light at the end of the tunnel and screw michael rosen and all will be ok , you made earthmark and he screwed you and all of the sales people, the sales people are on the attack against that #astard . we believe all will come out in the wash!!!!!!!!!!! go cay clubs
Per the previous post, and as a cay club owner, by no means am I looking for Dave Clark to go down in flames, actually the opposite, I'd like to seem him succeed, probably as much as or more than the next guy. The problem is that Dave isn't publishing any news. Nothing about the merger, nothing about selling the properties to Sunvest, nothing at all. You can't help but to wonder what is going on and you have to assume the worst sometimes, despite how distasteful. So maybe you can offer some insight into what in the hell is going on, is my cay clubs investment down the tubes, should I be signing on with a lawyer, is there any way to translate your goodwill towards Dave into actuall funding to correct the pending implosion? I can't say I'm a Dave hatter or lover, just very concerned and attentive to the situation.
I would like to know what the poster suggests people do instead of blogging. People like to have information and if a blog is the only way to get it then so be it. It doesn't seem anyone on the current inside is volunteering information besides saying everything is OK which is obviously highly optimistic.
A perfect example of why the blog is good is the person that said headquarters is closing (closed) on the 19th. No one would know this unless the blog said it or if it was heard through the grapevine. If HQ is closed then one would guess the commercial property next door that was supposed to house the hotel will soon be sold to raise (payoff debt) money. This of course means Clearwater will not expand as expected and property values won't climb as expected since they are only condos by the bay and not a full service resort.
Didn't you know, I am his mistress ;)
-Cristal
I haven't been here in quite a while, months actually, but it's nice to see both sides still interested in discussing these matters. I'm sorry for all the investors to be in the position to be financially devastated. I hope Dave can keep it together- he's not giving up. The Berman group (another big developer in the Keys) just went bankrupt. The company building "Playa Cristal" on the old America Outdoors just died (47 yrs old) in his sleep (most likely from stress). All of the publicly traded development companies' stock just recently went to "junk status" (within the last couple of months). Times are definitely not good in this industry and market. All we can do is keep trying and plow ahead (with everything we can, for as long as we can). That's what I see Dave trying to do. He is all-consumed with keeping things moving forward. The bad press never helps and that was the main reason the merger didn't work out. That hurts everyone. But there are relationships in the works as we speak. The A&B deal has a substantial down payment that would be hard to lose- from many months past (maybe even a year, I'm not 100% certain). Closing on it and running it is a better plan, according to my information. I appreciate all the kind and gracious people in the Keys who have shown me, Dave, and our kids respect, whenever we are out in the community. It helps me remember that there are truly good and decent people still out there, no matter how black our eyes get during this economic downturn/nightmare. Given this is such a small town, I expected people to treat us with a much different demeanor- given the layoffs, leaseback issues, etc. But they haven't. They usually say hello, ask how we're doing and wish us the best. They share stories of their friends and associates who face similar circumstances- tellus about their business downturns, etc. I feel really badly for our employees down here, holding their breaths, hoping for a better day- worried every morning whether or not they'll have their jobs. Several have been offered positions with the company taking over some of the projects down here- unfathomably, most declined. It's unreal how much loyalty and dedication these people generously devote. I really thank you all. Drs. Blumenthal, I'm sorry for whatever your situation has been. I know you've sold many properties with us (not sure if you bought?) No matter what, we will always admire and respect you (I think that's the neighbor blogger?)...Re-the blogger who mentioned the "83 houseboat"- it's actually a '72 houseboat. It's not very marketable, given most '72 houseboats can't be given away (it was given to us). I guess we should try to sell that, though- you're right. I'll work on that this week. Most of our time and energies lately have gone to holding things together and coming up with a more feasible gameplan for today's market. Again, I appreciate all the supportive comments and I sincerely apologize for any and all of the people who are disappointed and angered by the fall-out. You have every right to feel the way you do and to speak your minds. I wish there were more forecasts to share, but I think everything is continuously up in the air- each day's circumstances change- sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. So any news or forecasts we post or share, may change in a moments notice. I wish I could tell you more- I wish I knew more. I'm sorry.
I was an employee of cay clubs. I noticed alot of problems in the company that i heard many people try and bring to attention but were just ignored. cay clubs violated many rules including many FREC rules. there was alot of misrepresentation rumors about ricky long before the market turned so poorly and they were ignored. they allowed him to continue becasue his sales were so high. but the bigger problem is whomever was in charge of finances. its was like no one in any of the companies (cay clubs was divided into like 50 different ones) knew what the other comapny was doing. we didnt even have a CFO until the ending days. and yes the director of flight operations and his assistant are still employed along with at least one pilot. and there still is a plane. even if we do not own the planes we just borrow someones elses for the day (which is still pricey). many people that worked there were underqualified. many departments were a complete joke. its not just the owners who are struggling. the employees were let go with no warning, no pay, no vacation pay, etc. the sales agents are still owed lots in commission. barry graham owns over 20 units of his own at cay clubs and he hasn't been paid commissions or leasebacks. hes owed millions. there had just been a sales meeting about a month before the first layoffs where everyone was told the company was doing great only to be let go without warning. talking about lack of communication the hardest part for the owners and employees alike has been the lack of communication. even within the company it was all rumors and hearsay because dave was not talking to anyone. even other partners and directors had no idea what was going on. some of the employees were taking angry calls and could do nothing to help because they didn't know what was even going on. no bulletins saying for example "hey we aren't paying rental money, so here's why and here's what to say". Nope they just had to take all the angry calls and make it that much worse because the employees didnt even know. still communication has been horrible with was is left of cay clubs. gary and david schwarz have resigned. ever wonder why neither schwarz brother invested in even one unit? and if i recall most daves units were in his dads or cristals names and i dont even know if any of them ever even closed. food for thought. barry hasnt been in the picture for a while. they owe him so much money id bet they are avoiding him all together. ive heard that cristal and dave may not even be married so that if anything did happen daves not screwed. the last parts a rumor but the rest is fact.
dave-
i dont think you intentionally meant for all this to happen so all i have to say is better communication is key. and manuals are a state law people work better and tend to follow rules better if there are manuals. and dont try and say there are cause they were quickly created at the very end after everything started going down. there was no organization or structure in that company and because of that you have hurt ALOT of people. There was even an owner who commited suicide because of his financial struggles due to cay clubs. forclosures and bankruptcies are huge dave. marriages get ruinied people lose everything they worked for. so everyone thats saying you are crook i dont believe that to be the case, but you definately need some business management classes before you start up another one.
Dave,
What are you going to do when your Dad (Fred Clark)Broker of Waterfront Realty gets arrested for fraud and wrongful selling .
He`s going to take the fall???????
WHAT ABOUT THE NEW MANAGEMENT COMPANY IN CLEARWATER THAT DAVE HIRE TO CONTINUE SCAMING THE PEOPLE AT CLERWATER!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave dont say you didnt hire the management company.
Cause the assocation did not vote on it.
Oh by the way Dave is not married to Crstal he`s still married to his wife which is not Crstal.
Hows the lobster and fancy wine that you can still afford after scaming everybody out of money TASTE?????????????????
So they still have an airplane? I remember hearing something about a quick exit strategy. When all the lawsuits start pouring in, they are probably going to use that airplane as their "Quick Exit Strategy."
Mr. Dave Clark, can you please tell me what the financial state of Cay Clubs was in late 2006? It appears that Cay Clubs had major financial challenges at that time. So, my question is, why did you allow the sale of units during a period when you clearly knew you did not have the ability to make leaseback payments? Oh, and if you try to say that Cay Clubs DID have all the leaseback funds set aside at this time period, then why did you not pay the investors in full after closing? I did not agree to a partial payment, so this is fruad. So tell us, did you or did you not have ALL the leaseback money set aside when you made these promises? If you say no, then you promised the investors something you did not have. If you say yes, then we know you illegally used or invested our money without our permission instead of fulfilling your financial obligations to us.
Historically Dave has created the majority of his LLCs under his name of Clark, Dave; some of his more recent filings seem to fall under the alternative Clark, Fred! The most alarming of which is THE CO-BROKE NETWORK LLC.
Over 100 LLCs to conduct business in 3 years of operations, its no wonder things are a mess, you could employ someone full time just to keep the journalling between LLCs straight. Piercing the corporate viel will be easier because the chances for mistake with that many entities is too high. Good luck!
Coincidentally Clark, Fred is the name used for operations prior to the creation of Crystal and Cay Club vehicles.
Its amazing what you can find in public records.
http://www.sunbiz.org/index.html
Dear All:
I have watched for months as Cay Clubs has stuggled to survive during the economical downturn. Look around there are many developers facing similar concerns. The most troubling part of all of this is the unfair trashing of Cay Clubs and its owners in the media. The Miami Herald, the Citizen, the Reporter have singled Cay Clubs out. I just read an article about another keys developer filing for bankruptcy protection. I am so sorry for his troubles. He however has not been dogged by the press. I haven't seen his company in the paper every week for months, they reported after the filing. The reckless journalism, (under the protection of the first ammendment???), has systematically destroyed this company, hundreds of investors, and employees and have the audacity to blame the state of affairs on Dave Clark and call him crooked. There were investors in place who would have invested in Cay Clubs and helped carry the company through the difficult times, given them the time to figure things out. Instead, because of the blatent sensationalism, the
the media chose to sell its wares, they have destroyed a dream, a company, many peoples investments, jobs etc, Cudos to you in the press, you truly are to be feared. Truth does not prevail. What a sorry tribute to our constitution. So when you see the ship sinking on Cay Clubs, just remember, none of us are safe. Inuendo and supposition can destroy us all. If the investors had followed through, there would be no blog, no stories, no scandel......Maybe the owners and investors of Cay Clubs should band together and see how legal it is to scream fire in a theatre.....
How dare you blame the employee's whose family went hungry waiting for unemployment? How dare you blame the investors, who trusted in your company enough to invest THEIR money. Cay Clubs made very poor financial decisions and that is what every one is blogging about. The investors and the employees did nothing, but trust in the wrong company. You Cay Clubs are in the wrong. You led the employees to believe that Cay Clubs was financially secure. You hired new employees the same week people got laid off. That is just wrong Cay Clubs. And, if you believe that for one minute we should trust you to make the wrongs right, you are wrong. I for one will never trust you again Cay Club,
A person of character will test his/her words by these three things: Is it true? Is it kind? Will it make things better if I share it? Many of you are spreading lies, that are unkind, and will hurt many people by your words. Some of you are hurting yourselves by your vicious gossip. Obviously, negotiations cannot all be public or they will never come about. "Blessed are the merciful for they will receive mercy."
Thank you. Finally a voice of reason. We all want to this to succeed as investors. Let's work together and help this company succeed.
Dear Anonymous:
You just don't get it. How can you say the trashing is unfair? Cay Clubs management systematically lied to investors. We are not upset that the market is flat, we are upset that Dave Clark has literally stolen our hard earned money. Nobody would be complaining if Dave Clark did as he promised, which was provide 2 years of rental income immediately after closing on a unit. That was just bait to lure an investor, he never intended on paying us in full. He knew he couldn't. Even more startling are the fraudulent appraisals and lack of luxury upgrades.
Certainly I hope the Cay Clubs can survive bad publicity, it would be naive to think that people aren't going to say something and it is even more naive to think that if the business case for the cay clubs is indeed sound that intelligent people wouldn't be able to see past the 'sensationalism'.
I don't worry about Dave running off with whatever exit strategy he might have, the wheels of justice grind ever so efficiently and I rest comfortably knowing that if he truely is a bad person, then the accounts will be settled, wether in this life or the next.
I am a cay club owner and I am litterally sick trying to figure out what to do with my unit, the cay clubs has not said a thing other than "hang in there, we're working on it". They said that back in the first of the year, its getting VERY OLD. Do they not realize that (based on the publicity) this has gained an almost political flavor and that they would be better off communicating than not communicating.
The complaint isn't about Dave, or the real estae market, or the apprisals, or whatever else, its simply about a lack of information. For the love of all that is sacred, you canceled the merger, you gave the property back to sunvest, and still nothing? Why don't you at least say something? I just don't understand how this can be an effective strategy!
I have no real information to go on, no real evidence of hope, nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help me make a informed decision and it is killing me. I'm sorry Dave that your life sucks, mine sucks too, we are in this together and we expect you to lead, not cry about it, not blame the media, not hide behind not communicating, we expect you to LEAD. Cowboy up, quit complaining about the media, the real estate market, and whatever else could make our collective lives suck and get this fixed. Oh, and tell us whats going on!
Integrity - firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values.
Stick to the vision of cay clubs, make this work, sell your blood if it helps save the countless number of investors / partners you brought into this mess. Make it happen. Cristal, do whatever is needed to support Dave, this simply can not fail, to many financial lives hang in the balance.
Respectfully, expecting more!
BOY! Are you in denial! The fraud is right there in black and white. That's why Cay Clubs is in the media. They did it to themselves.
The problem started way before the down turn.
Lieing to buyers and not providing what was sold (such as lease back money)if you sold a unit the lease back money should been put in escrow for the buyer than using it for other things such as air planes and lavished perks for Dave,Dave.AND Barry.
What about the 46 million profit that was shown when you were going to merge with Key Hospitalaty.
Why didnt you do the reovation on the propertythat was all ready sold, some people didnt get thier unit redone or new urnit furniture.
their was to much money pull out of the company thats why Dave would get a nother prodject started so they could paythe lease back to the other properties.
So Dave Clark if you were on the up & up this wouldn`t happen.
The press didnt destroy Cay CLUBS!!!!!!!!
It was Dave Clark GREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The person wrote that its unfare how the press wrote about Cay Clubs well if Dave done what he told investor what he was going to do there would not be problem (TOLLS BROTHER,WCI, LENNAR AND MANY OTHERS) DOESN`T HAVE BAD PRESS SO QUIT LISTING TO DAVE THAT HE DIDN`T DO ANY WRONG.
ITS ALL OVER GREED.
ALL THAT MONEY IS IN SOME OFF SHORE BANK
Cay Club owners we are coming to save you from the sinking Titanic.
Hold on tight it won't be long there is help coming. Talk to you all soon. We are working on behalf of the lenders and borrowers.
Clearwater owners the letters went
out on Monday. We have spoken to
over 60 owners already. Please watch your mail we sent one to every owner.
There were 140 people out of 1,200 who didn't get their lease back. Everyone at Clearwater got their lease back. If you couldn't resell your unit in 2 years, that is a gamble you take when buying real estate. No one is selling anything. Divorce is a gamble you take when you get married. I cannot believe all the blatant viciousness and rumors. If the company was such a joke, insider, why did you work there? Because no one else would hire you- or pay you as well? Or give you benefits? How sad. So they paid you to slam them once you got laid off. Or you're still there and they're still paying you to stab them. Only angry people blog as theres so much to do in life that the happy people who made lots of money are off soing what they do. Fred Clark is daves dad. Cristal started the cobroke thing. Its a realestate cobroke gig.
10/26 12:45 AM blogger- you are BARRY GRAHAM!!! Everyone know you don't know how to capitalize any of your sentences as you just learned how to use a computer. NICE COMMENTS!
I am new to the blog and would like to ask or make a few suggestions. I appreciate all I have learned but unfortunately, there are no answers to be had here. We purchased an Orlando condo this spring after doing what I thought was good due diligence only to find ourselves in this mess. Thankfully, we did receive half of our leaseback but this is still a financial nightmare for us.
My comments are:
1. The lawyers are waiting out there to sue a number of parties on our behalf. However, their fee is 1/3 of what if anything we get back. If they were to win, are you willing to give up 1/3 of what you paid for your unit? Do you really think it's worth that much less than what you paid for it?
2. If Sunvest has indeed taken back a number of Cay Club properties, what is their plan for them? Sunvest looks to be a stable company that has been around for a long time - maybe this isn't such a bad thing? Has anyone been in contact with Sunvest to ascertain what their plans are?
3. Dave Clark has given us his phone number and email address in earlier blogs. Has anyone contacted him directly? If so, what is he saying now?
All of us are in the same predicament. I think we would all be better off if we worked together to help solve this problem than try to figure it out on our own. As mentioned in a previous blog, the hardest part is no communication. We can only deal with this when we know what our options are.
Hows anyone get a third of zero cuz the company sinks cuz of all this? Hey lets shoot our racehorse for stumbling then hope he gets back up and wins the race so we can sue him for making us lose our money we bet on him in the first place. smart.
Dave hired managers to manage their departments and David S. was the CFO for the first few years until Mike M came onboard. Dave hire Barry G to be director for sales. I think the only people hired after the layoffs were to fill positions that had to go down in $$$ because no one could afford the big salaries no more.
If we support Dave Clark and don't undermine the company or Dave, we will all come out ahead. Let do what we can to help him help us. Let's be smart and help him rebuild. That way, we all win.
From what Ricky Stokes 'sold' us, and from what my appraisal said, I thought I was betting on a fine racehorse...only to find out I ended up with a donkey.
A leader always gets more praise than they deserve and more criticism than they deserve. Put yourself out there and you will see. Maybe you will be the donkey.
to 10/28/2007 2:36 PM, re what to do in orlando, email me at summersmoker@gmail.com, I have some good information, I am an owner.
earthquake= economy & market
race= real estate boom/ investment
racehorse= Cay Clubs/ Dave
betters= investors, press, ex-employees
rifles= blogs, lawsuits
People place their bets on a racehorse that seems to hold promise. He's won many races in the past. People have made mone betting on him. The gun blasts, the horses go. An earthquake rumbles through the earth. The horses fall, struggle to get back to their feet. They're shaken, hurt, baffled. The betters see their horse down. They're upset, get out their rifles and start taking shots at the fallen horse. Why let it live when it seems they're going to lose? But wait. Maybe if they let it get up and do what it is able, just maybe, it can still win- I mean, all the other horses are in the same position, right? How can it win when it's dead?
Give it a chance.
If you already foreclosed or went bankrupt because of not being able to pay your loan without leaseback, you weren't honest with your lender. You shouldn't have bought. You're likely many of the shooters. If you're waiting for the leaseback, think. A dead horse cannot win a race.
To: 10/29/2007 2:03 PM
Your comments were right on. Some people are shooting their own racehorse. Lets support our racehorse in everyway; so that we can all win this race! I'd have to think that if you are not supportive; you must NOT be an investor. You just must want to hurt the company or Dave for some other reason. Or maybe you are just a gossip. Whatever the case, it doesn't take many brains to know that you "DON'T SHOOT YOUR RACEHORSE!"
Does anyone know what is going on with Clearwater? Cay Clubs gone for good?
Hi, I'm just a nobody who used to work for Cay Clubs before I became a victim of the lay-offs. I read all the comments left by everyone and although everyone is entitled to an opinion, I can't help but feeling sad for everyone involved in this mess. There is so much finger pointing and blame going around, it's unbelievable.
When working on the inside, you hear and see things and get to know people a little. I really believed in Dave S. as a top notch guy and still do. Dave C. also. Then I read all of the comments in disblief and wonder how we could have been so wrong about them. Well I don't think I was wrong about them. I think their only mistake was trusting in the wrong employees just under them. As employees, we were lied to by our supervisors. Many of us actually caught them in bold faced lies, but what can you do? I really don't think Dave S. and David C. really knew some of the things that went on in the Corp. office and how the employees were really treated. But now it's water under the bridge.
As for the owners, my heart really goes out to you too. I do think you were misled, but not by Dave C., but by people who stood to get big, fat commission checks if you bought. Some of the checks were outrageous in the amounts issued, plus these people also received salaries too. Maybe these employees only cared about themselves...
Personally, I feel that real estate investments are just that...an investment. If you can't afford a $500,000.00 unit. THEN DON"T BUY A $500,00.00 unit. It's that simple.
As for Dave C. and David S....I for one believed in you and your company and really enjoyed working there. I've made some really good friends along they way, so I have no regrets. I'm really disappointed in you that with all we gave you as employees, you couldn't even come out to us little "nobodies" and say "I'm sorry this is happening. We appreciated all that you've done for us. Thank You" Shame on you. No everyone thinks you are crooks.
THEY ARE STILL STEALING YOUR MONEY
IN CLEARWATER......!!!!!! THEY
ARE NOT GONE YET......!!!!!
Is comparing Dave Clark to a race horse a compliment?
You should just get off your high horse.
People Quake UP
This Dog & Pony show WENT on LONG ENGOUGH.
They just had a nother closing and Dave Clark still taking peoples money.
WHATS UP WHITH THAT DAVE??????????
Knowing you cant provide a resort. And its spose to be a upscale resort yea.
Dave if you were on the up and up you would not hurt any body else.
And you had to go back to Stumps office FOR THE CLOSING cause Phonix pulled out.
HE WILL BE ABLE TO LAID HIS HEAD ON A PILLOW.
Dave you have Crystal wrighting blogs to defend you and what a joke about the racehorse and probly came from Crystal step dad.
BOTTOM LINE IS IF YOU WOULD OF DONE WHAT WAS PROJECTED IT WOULD OF HAD VALUE JUST as ANY OTHER RESORTS.
Look at Bobby Ginn he still doing al right and dosent have bad press.
So Dave when are you going to stop selling this junk and hurting people.
How many people are going to conmitt suicide???? Theres been one all ready.
HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT??????????????????????????
Perhaps there were people that bought their units and actually believed what Stokes claimed..."you can get out anytime...just give us 60-90 days"...Remember the PROVEN EXIT STRATEGY that we have on the REIN seminar? So maybe people did not lie to their lenders, but wanted to get out simply when we wanted to...as we were told. Even more so, there is no way in $%&* I am going to continue paying that kind of money for that condo when it is worth hundreds of thousands less then my SLIGHTLY INACCURATE APPRAISAL states!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, I have heard rumor that 2 of the CC execs are foreclosing on some of their units. Is this because they lied to their lenders, too? or simply because it is a sinking ship? I tend to think the latter...
I was watching the news tonight about the real estate market in Miami, they interviewed an invester who bought a high priced pre construction unit in Miami who is now putting his unit in the rental pool for much less than his carrying cost because there is just not sales market right now. He is holding tight until the market turns around. He is losing right now but sees the big picture, the market will turn around. I think all of us who invested with Cay Clubs did so because we were looking to make money in real estate. If we can band together, share information to help each other, maybe we can pull out of this together, support the collective cause, and come out ahead. I personally am not interested in giving my hard earned money to an attorney. To help destroy a company in hopes of getting a settlement??? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me. Do we have any new info on Clearwater?
I think there is an agenda here. Some people have tried to hurt Cay Clubs and their owners for a "personal vendetta". How can you sleep at night? Gossip and lies will come back to haunt you.
Re: stealing your money. Obviously written by an attorney who is trying to steal YOUR money. The sharks are trying to create blood.
NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS BLOG
Although I wan't to continue to publish everyone's comments, I must insist that libelous/slanderous comments not be submitted. They will not be published.
So, feel free to share your thoughts. But do not submit comments that are libelous.
I have had to (unfortunately) delete a comment submitted yesterday because it had stated that someone was a criminal, even though they had not been proven so in court.
Your comments should be backed up by facts - do not simply say someone is this or that.
I'm still waiting for my leaseback money in Las Vegas CC. I'd like to call someone but I'm not sure who might have the answer. I'll try my sales rep, I guess. George Z ("The Z-Man"). He's probably in NASCAR by now?
I understand a "Time Share" company took over at Clearwater CC called Celebrity Resorts. Is this good or bad news??
Well, given there is no market for regular condos right now, maybe just maybe you can sell your units as time shares or fractionals. Good idea.
Who commit suicide with CC? I knew (from working for EarthMark before going with CC) that a guy who invested at EarthMark in two properties did- but that because he was on meds and seeing a psychiatrist with serious family problems/ marriage (not from real estate) which had gone on for years and years before ever using his trust funds to become the investor. I know for fact he left a 25 page letter to his wife saying his woes- never once saying he couldnt do the real estate thing- and that was years ago, when the market was red hot. Shame on you people for saying stuff like that- ignorance is so unbelievable! And you said about Dave C. eating lobster- ha! you really know him- not!! He's allergic to lobster! I'm so tired of you mud slingers trying to destroy a person's character. Dave didnt sell the units- he didnt create the frozen market- he didnt stop the economy for real estate. He didnt stop the mortgage lenders. He didnt sign the loan papers for everyone or even talk to your bankers. He has said "I'm sorry" to several, if not all his employees. Did he hire you? Or did your manager hire you? Did you ever thank him face to face for giving you probably double the salary than most people make in your position and full benefits- and the ability to go on vacation- time off when you needed? Its called layoffs. Don't move to detroit or Chicago or anywhere where layoffs are common, sas you'll have to start a whole new blog.
Cayo Dave, thanks for your words- but didn't you start this parade? I don't get it. Every time you see bad press bad blogs etc you can thank them for the likely next round of layoffs. Keys Hospitality was almost a done deal- a hair away and that would have helped everyone- but they canceled from the relentless bad press. I heard there may be lawsuits related to that, too. From the other side.
Ginn just had an episode where all his employees paid to have a banner flown over a Nascar event saying what they thought of him. Hmm...And it wasn't a pretty picture, having to spend huge amounts to stop it.
I would like to know who committed suicide. Can anyone provide a name?
If I were Ginn, they would be former employees. Loyalty is expected from employees. Must be generation X. They have no loyalty.
To the "nobody" former employee. Spoken very well. I, too, am a former employee and you said actually what I think most of us felt. Thank You !
Dave Clark and David Schwarz left Santa Rosa County in Gulf Breeze, Florida,in the late 80's early 90's with approx. $20 million dollar judgment against Dave Clark for a failed real estate company. Cay Clubs is not their first failure hurting people financially.
Anyone who got laid off is not going to be loyal, obviously.
I have been reading this blog with great interest hoping to gather any helpful information. I have read comments about whether you should have invested or not and about waiting for the market to turn around. I have a unit in Cleawater and I would not have a problem with "waiting" on the market except for one MAJOR fact that comes into play. We were told that there were short term nightly rentals at this project. That was not true then and is certainly not true now. As a result our unit generates a fraction of the income we anticipated. Now come on people, this was a major lie at the time that has changed the whole investment in my opinion.
I don't know anyone involved with this company so I can not judge anyone. That being said we were told A FLAT OUT LIE. Someone is responsible for that. I do not think my sales person just made this up.
I also feel that if Dave Clark were truly concerned about the investors as some claim that he is, then he would be doing some things differently. First, this blog would not even be neccesary if he would do one simple thing - KEEP PEOPLE INFORMED WITH THE TRUTH. I feel that he should have sent each investor a letter updating them on their situation. At this point I have no idea who to contact about my unit in Clearwater or who is at Orlando and who to contact in Orlando. It seems if people had some idea of whats going on and who to contact regarding their unit there would not be so much room for speculation, frustration and anger.
Yes, the market has changed. I can accept that. What I have a hard time accepting is the outright lies that were told to get my money and then I am left high and dry with an investment that has none of the promised amenities or income. That is a problem. No matter how well you research an investment, if you are given false information you are left holding the (worthless) bag.
Now that I got that off of my chest, any ideas on how to sell a unit at Clearwater!!
Does anyone have any comments (good or bad)about the letter Clearwater owners received from April?? Just wondering about the validity of her claims and the reality of it working?
I am sorry but bad press would not stop a merger from happening. The deal was made when the company was still showing profit. They revised it at the start of the financial troubles and eventually canceled it but it was certainly not because of bad press. Do you really think the company wouldn't have reevaluated their position and Cay Clubs books before finalizing the deal and spending 100+ million dollars? Paleeeaaase. OK the deal is done. Can we have $15 million dollars now to catch up on bills?
If the market hadn't gone south I can assure you a little bad press wouldn't put them out of business. Every company gets bad press at some point in time.
And lets be real here. With everything that has happened this company is just about finished as you know it. I don't care what their PR people say since that is their job. You don't cut 90% of your work force, have executives resign, lose properties etc...and still survive. That is not to say Dave C. and Stokes don't try to keep things going but don't plan on anything being a resort any time soon unless it is the last.
More satisfied owners
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court
-flmdce/case_no-8:2007cv01903/case_id-206316/
http://www.beltlawfirm.com/cay-clubs.html?gclid=CMGN2c7GvI8CFRZNYQodtHVRJA
click the link above to join the lawsuit against cay cay clubs in orlando. they are also considering a lawsuit for las vegas but have not filed suit yet.
has anyone else filed suit against cay clubs in clearwater, sarasota or las vegas?
if so please provide a link to the attorney.
i have spoken to sunvest, the new owner of sarasota cay club. they say they will have a lease agreement for owners mid-november so we can start receiving rental income soon. the weasels at cay clubs have been collecting rental income for units we own at sarasota but not passing any of it to us. they are legally in breach of contract and should be ashamed of their lack of integrity.
the problem with las vegas cc is that most of the rooms have not been furnished so cannot be rented. the investors continue to make mortgage payments and receive no income.
Comment #200!
Let me jump here and address this idea that the press (blogs included...thank you very much) have destroyed Cay Clubs.
This is a falicy.
What makes or breaks companies are the FUNDAMENTALS.
Cay Clubs appears to be a fair-weather-only success. But businesses must have a plan for down-cycles if they hope to succeed in the long run. The real estate business is especially prone to the business cycle.
If the fundementals of the business were sound, then bad press would have little effect. Wise and wealthy buyers would scoop up any bargains from the damage the press caused.
This is witnessed on a daily basis on Wall Street - where analysts tout and bash stocks routinely, only to be proven right or wrong based on the fundementals. In the end, all the conjecture in the world doesn't matter. Its the facts that matter.
Quite to the contrary of some commenters, the press and blogs have been doing the public a service - informing and warning them of this companies serious problems. Would you rather not know?
If Cay Clubs fails, it will not because of the press. It will be because it had a plan that only succeeded under the best of circumstances. And that is no long term business plan.
Keep telling yourself that the "press had nothing to do with this". I hope you can't sleep at night for what you have done. The press had everything to do with this. Who are you in bed with? What is your agenda? You do not like developers or investors. Your irresponsible reporting has costs everyone millions of dollars--Cay Clubs, investors, and the citizens of the Keys, who have lost their jobs because of you. If there are any suicides; it is on your head. You and people like you will sell your soul for a story; and you have. You have sold your soul. You have hurt too many people to imagine. You have no idea what you are talking about at all. Do you run a company of this scale? No one can predict real estate markets to this extent. You should be ashamed. You have hurt many people. You are an arrogant and heartless man. You do not know the people you are writing about. You do not know the hardships they have gone through. You do not know how much they want to help others. You have an agenda, to sell news at their expense. You are a greedy person who makes money off the misery of others.And it IS YOUR fault that the merger did not take place.The news media killed the deal. Just like they harm so many others who are in the spotlight; for a $.
You are wrong in your comments "Cayo Dave". The real estate market created the problem and the press made it worse. Many wonderful companies with excellent business plans are go under because of this market. You are so wrong!
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